1:00 I explain Secular Koranism.
2:00 Objective morality is public morality backed by divine law.
3:00 The law is the law.
4:00 TJump strawmans me.
The problem of defining morality
5:00 TJump's objective morality
6:00 My definition of morality
7:00 No people, no minds, no ideas.
7:02
matthew fors
are they talking about secular humanism or QURANISM?
7:22
Nate The Lawyer
Objective is not influenced by personal feelings or opinions.
8:00 TJump: "All ideas are subjective."
8:08
Nate The Lawyer
For it to be objective it has to exist without humans
9:00 CK: "To be objective is to be impartial."
10:00 TJump: "Your intentionality is subjective."
CK: If all concepts are subjective, is the concept of being objective also subjective?
TJump falsely accuses me of equivocation fallacy.
10:56
Restream Bot
[Twitch: Fred_COH2] I saw Claire debate Mark Reed, check out his channel:
11:00 I am again accused of equivocation fallacy.
12:00 Ontology
My killer point which was lost on TJump:
Isn't his concept of objective morality also subjective?
Why did TJump mention "supernatural things"?
13:00 Epistemology
14:00 TJump's objective morality
14:00 "All beliefs are subjective" apart from God's.
14:43
Restream Bot
[Twitch: Fred_COH2] Here comes the burps
15:00 Truth
16:10
Perfict1
We have a concept of gravity, that does not mean that gravity is subjective. However, our concept of gravity would be subjective.
16:00 My definition of objective morality
TJump claims his objective morality is a law of physics.
17:00 The law is for practical purposes, objective morality for atheists who agree with that law. The law is also objective morality for theists who agree with that law. The law of the US is objectively the law of the US if it is in force, even if some Americans do not agree with it and even if it is not in practice enforced equally or fairly.
I am again accused of "equivocation fallacy".
18:00 TJump insists that his use of objective is correct while mine is not.
19:00 Public morality is the law of the land, but TJump says this is subjective.
20:00 TJump says all laws are subjective.
21:00 Morality
22:00 TJump refuses to explain how the law of physics is relevant to morality.
23:00 If God exists, objective morality exists. TJump denies this.
24:00 If God exists, whatever He says goes. TJump contradicts me.
So I ask again if God's view of things is just another opinion, in the opinion of TJump and he refers to Euthyphro's false dilemma.
26:00 I point out that the Abrahamic God is supposed to be perfectly moral.
28:46
Church of Entropy
lol hes called claire jen
29:00 What makes something good?
31:00 TJump attempts to explain his objective morality.
32:00 Map and territory
32:13
Harry Nicholas
for the sake of progress, does it matter if morality is objective or not? what difference does it make??
34:00 If the perfectly Abrahamic God exists, His view of morality would be supreme.
35:00 How exactly has TJump won?
TJump's says God's opinion is subjective.
36:00 God's nature
Is TJump really 6' 2"?
37:00 If the perfectly moral Abrahamic God exists, then He would be the supreme authority on morality.
38:00 The false dilemma of Euthyphro
Hamlet: "There is nothing good or evil, only thinking makes it so."
40:00 TJump points out God is immoral for drowning babies.
40:42
Dave
Tom is now arguing himself now
41:00 I explain the bargain with God.
42:00 Bears killing children
43:00 TJump rejects the Noahide laws because God allowed the bears to kill the children who mocked the prophet Elisha.
42:44
X
The Quran clearly says God saves the innocents before destroying a society
43:06
Widdershinnz
Elijah prayed that 42 children would die bc they made fun of him being bald
43:13
ManicPandaz
If we fundamentally can’t understand god’s reasoning, doesn’t that means god’s actions are fundamentally nonsensical?
43:18
X
HES NOT USING THE QURAN THIS IS RIDICULOUS
44:07
Dis Noodle
Actually this isn’t from the Quran lol
44:07
X
@Udhehf nope he says he saves the innocent only the guilty get destroyed
44:35
X
HES NOT USING THE QURAN
46:01
Best In Show
Claire also approves of Sharia Law to manage women. She approves of whippings & lashes for sex outside of marriage or homosexuals. Believes unwed parents should be labeled as "Sex Offenders." Awful!
46:33
X
@udhehf no the Quran specifically says the innocent are saved
46:51
SmackDab
Agree or disagree, at least theists can sleep better knowing that my moral foundations lead me to conclude that murder is wrong (etc) and that I ought to do good WHETHER OR NOT ANY GODS EXIST
47:00 COMPETING MORAL SYSTEMS
47:05
you
Muhammed's wars were defensive afaik
47:22
X
THE QURAN ONLY TALKS ABOUT DEFENDING YOURSELF WTH HOWS AN AMERICAN ARGUING AGAINST THAT 😂
48:00 JUDGING THE EFFICACY OF COMPETING MORAL SYSTEMS
48:01
Church of Entropy
if claire listened to @doooovid, this wouldnt be happening
49:00 Judging the quality of a moral system by its outcome
50:00 TJump likens moral systems to spears.
I point out that morality is an abstract concept while a spear is a weapon.
52:00 Criteria on how to judge the effectiveness of a moral system
Happiness Index
53:00 JEWS
53:09
Perfict1
Morality is not only judged by its purpose or intention, it can also be judged by its results.
53:19
Colin Sixhitter
"And keeping it apart from others" the sole reason for religion.
54:00
David Frisken
So the Greek evolution of democracy method is the best because it has been around longer than Jews?
54:00 But for Judaism, there would be no Jews.
But for Jews, there would be no Jesus for Christians to worship.
Islam is about ending the absurdity, blasphemy, human sacrifice and idolatry of Christianity.
54:30
Rise Over here305
Hinduism doesn’t have a founder and it’s the first oldest religion
55:00 If nobody practised Judaism, there would be no one called Jews to pass on their ethnicity to their offspring.
55:24
Adam Albilya
lol people [ie TJump] don't differentiate Judaism and Jewish people again
55:29
you
Jews and Arabs are semitic
55:29
Dave
omg cant believe she just said that!! Jews would die out if they stopped being Jewish
55:30
David Frisken
Jew society lasted for a very small amount of time over its on again off again time
55:37
Rise Over here305
Arab is an ethnicity
55:57
X
@Udhehf the point is to teach others the outcome of taking the piss out of laws of God
55:57
Widdershinnz
Jewish is a cultural identity
56:07
Doubting Thomas
jews are determined by their mother
56:13
Rise Over here305
Also Sikhism is an ethnoreligion group
57:00 A peculiarity of the Jews
58:00 I was not given the opportunity to explain how if no one at all practised Judaism, there would be no Jews to pass on their ethnicity to their children.
58:48
Josué
actually Judaism is an ethnoreligion, both things are true
58:56
Doubting Thomas
I'm an atheist my mother's Jewish
59:35
Ben Noach
tom is ignorant of halakhic law
1:00:00 The nature and purpose of religion
1:01:00 I will be consulting my rabbinical contacts.
1:01:01
Church of Entropy
>ends up being an exposition of claires incredibly bigoted opinions
1:01:42
Church of Entropy
TJump is starting to understand 0.1% of my plight
1:01:45
Doubting Thomas
what are Israelis and what are Hebrews
1:01:53
doooovid
team Claire
1:02:12
Church of Entropy
@doooovid always holding to principle!
1:02:39
Ben Noach
Rabbis would disagree with Tom tbh
1:03:00 I point out that according to God, Jews have no religious freedom.
1:04:00 God forbids Jews from having religious freedom but tolerates this in gentiles.
Someone has to define what being Jewish means.
1:05:00 TJump does not seem to understand that in order for the next generation of Jews to be produced, their parents have to be Jewish. For Jews to remain in existence, they have to practise Judaism.
1:07:00 TJump: "Religion has nothing to do with morality."
1:05:26
Dave
Tom dont shout at Claire this isnt allowed you commoner
1:05:26
Ben Noach
according to the Torah Jews came into existence when Moses received the Torah
1:06:37
Church of Entropy
dumbass... is that the technical term?
1:07:00 TJump: "Religion has nothing to do with morality."
I express disappointment at not having a more civilised discussion.
1:07:18
Church of Entropy
claire wants to be a theocratic dictator, while larping as a secular liberal @TJump it took me a while to realise that level of mind bending hypocrisy
1:07:35
Church of Entropy
its like she tries to maximise dishonesty while not lying, its actually quite something
1:08:00 TJump shouts at me again.
1:08:10
Adam Albilya
@David im a jewish and an Atheist.nothing new except for people who dont know jewish identity and history,looking at it from western lenses.i wont define the classification of one to self and identity
1:09:49
Brenda
Tom seems unusually aggressive
1:09:58
Church of Entropy
morality comes from rules, can we even agree on that
1:10:00 Laws should be moral.
It is impossible to have a discussion about morality without discussing religion and God.
But TJump claims academics think otherwise but is unable to cite any.
1:10:10
David Frisken
Laws are not an indication of morality
1:10:16
Church of Entropy
morality comes from adherence to principle
1:10:37
Brenda
laws are ethical norms
1:10:58
Charles Insolo
Morality is not helped by God.
1:11:00 Logic tells which moral system is best.
1:11:00
Rise Over here305
Laws came from different religions not only Christianity
1:11:05
Colin Sixhitter
There is one objective morality. To live long enough to breed and pass on your genes everything else is how we organised to make that chance better.
1:11:48
Rise Over here305
The Stone Age didn’t have any morals or laws
1:13:00 Everyone in the world could be wrong about something.
1:13:01
Rise Over here305
The Christian God said thou shall not worship other Gods before me. Thou shall not make idols. But some Christians worship white Jesus or black Jesus
1:13:21
Woody
but she has a nice voice.
1:13:21
Charles Insolo
Objective = independent of thought or opinion
1:14:03
Charles Insolo
Gotta love the accent!
1:14:08
Capt Rabbit
claire went to private school
1:14:29
Rise Over here305
Laws came from religions and government
1:15:00 The teleology of religion
1:15:43
Charles Insolo
Something about an English accent that makes you sound smarter than you really are.
1:16:00 Lies
One should judge a religion by its effectiveness since it is impossible to establish the truth of it. If it is both effective and true, or at least unfalsifiable, then all the better.
Noble lie
1:16:22
Rise Over here305
God has the right to do what God wants with his creations because God is above everybody and outside of time and space
1:17:00 The purpose of religion is to keep the group in existence and apart from others.
1:17:34
surrender_monkey
she sounds like my mother when she's talking to the police lol
1:18:00 The status of Jews as God's Chosen People
1:20:00 TJump believes the achievement of secular political ideologies outweighs that of religions though each generation rests on the shoulders of the previous generation.
1:21:07
Doubting Thomas
every human being in the world is born an atheist
Religion is like spears. [sic]
1:22:00 TJump cannot seem to understand that all successful religions allow the achievements of previous generations to be built on. Failing religions are ones which use up resources rather than build on them.
1:23:00 Past performance is no guarantee of future results.
1:25:00 My criteria for measuring the effectiveness of religions: longevity, status, empire
1:25:54
David Frisken
Zoroastrianism is the oldest continuous religion
1:27:00 I reject his suggestion that moral systems are like spears and guns because moral systems are ideas. Moral systems should be judged by how effective they are at keeping the group in existence and apart from others, while spears and guns are weapons which should be judged by how effective they are as weapons.
1:30:46
zpd
SHE'S NOT SAYING LONGEVITY WORKS FOR EVERYTHING TOM
1:30:53
444Fayte
oh i thought she stopped
1:30:54
Dave
Tom please dont shout at Claire you commoner
1:31:03
Sunflower
longevity is a temporal word. Its incorrect to use it to describe physical length lmao
1:31:36
Colin Sixhitter
How long did the ancient Egyptian society last?
1:31:42
Sunflower
The definition if longevity is "1.) long life."long existence or service.
1:32:19
Sunflower
the length of a spear is not longevity
1:33:10
Doubting Thomas
what you're talking about is the origins of Technology
1:33:42
Benevolent Intelligence
few people today even know the fact that hammers were invented originally to smash toes....
1:34:00 Bizarrely, TJump says atheism has been around for longer than religion.
Muslim have been around for centuries and Muslim theocracies exist.
1:35:14
Sunflower
yeah but if you replace "societies" with "countries/nations" the secular ones fail **miserably** lmao
1:35:19
Perfict1
Claire needs to explain why the two scenarios are disanalogous. She just keeps saying that she thinks that longevity does apply when considering morality.
1:35:21
ME Game
Kids haven't lived as long as their parents, but they will live longer than the parents. Older doesn't necessarily mean better.
1:36:25
Sunflower
the societies that existed before religion are now completely extinct
1:36:43
Sunflower
there is no persisting 'atheist' society from a time before religion
1:37:0 Bizarrely, TJump calls atheism a moral system.
Secularism
1:37:48
Sunflower
all of these societies died out or converted to religious societies.... lmao
1:37:51
Colin Sixhitter
Didn't they find a S American tribe that had no concept of god? They still had a moral system.
1:38:03
doooovid
spears are just a tool used by man, Jews have been at the top of all societies for thousands of years
1:38:10
Mr Jones
You needed religion in the first place
1:38:24
Travis Statham
Member (2 months)
A missionary went there and lost his faith.
1:38:28
doooovid
the success (and persecution) of the Jews is the greatest logical proof of the Bible
1:38:33
Sunflower
someone point me to the atheist society that has been atheist since before religion and lasted until the present.???? Wtf? please??
1:39:00 I was speechless at being told Neanderthals were secular.
1:39:06
doooovid
TJump is comparing Jews to spears?
1:39:38
Sunflower
tjumps argument is like saying 'the only reason electricity had success is because the societies without electricity that came before it built things up for it'
1:39:42
cazzac
LOL neanderthals
1:39:45
Church of Entropy
these metaphors @doooovid i cant take em anymore
1:39:49
Sunflower
and thats supposed to mean electricity is somehow bad
1:39:51
Sunflower
this argument makes no sense
1:40:00 TJump: "I don't need to prove anything [ie that atheists pre-existed theists whose achievements theists built on], I win either way."
Sunflower
tjumps argument is like saying 'the only reason electricity had success is because the societies without electricity that came before it built things up for it'
1:40:06
cazzac
why does tjump get so mad he has no chill
1:40:12
doooovid
some kind of circumcision thing to keep comparing Jews to spears?
1:40:38
doooovid
they can't just agree to disagree about the meaning of objective
1:40:40
Sunflower
electricity obviously was massively beneficial and helpful to humanity, not at all due to the societies that preceded it
1:41:05
Udhehf Hehcuw
Tjump needs to chill with the combative talk
1:41:20
Sunflower
lmao why is tjump freaking out
1:41:36
doooovid
that Jews have excelled in all societies for thousands of years is (non)-objective proof that the legal system of the Bible is objectively better than other legal systems
1:42:00 Dinosaurs
1:42:02
cazzac
secular does mean separate from religion in the context of religiosity
1:42:34
Sunflower
i dont think most historians would refer to pre-religious societies as "Secular"
1:42:46
doooovid
Claire is destroying TJump, TJump just doing his rhetoric 101 class, but not actually making arguments
1:43:09
doooovid
TJump might have some point in teaching Claire a few definitions or points of logic, but Claire is winning the larger argument,
1:43:20
Mr Jones
Even aminals have death ceremonies
1:43:36
zpd
Just because there were no organized religions back then doesnt' mean people didn't believe in superstitious crap
1:43:47
zpd
Tom is playing with semantics
1:44:00 Animism
1:44:02
Jason Horner
I think Tom is getting upset because she is becoming very dishonest.
1:44:22
cazzac
i think Tom is being dishonest tbh
1:44:24
Kyle
She’s absolutely dishonest
1:44:24
Udhehf Hehcuw
not a good reason to make yourself look unhinged
1:44:26
Benevolent Intelligence
the vast majority of this debate has been tjump trying to get Clair to acknowledge what words mean... 🤦♀
1:44:32
Sunflower
a lot of the rituals and ceremonies of societies that existed before religion could probably seen as proto-religious
1:45:00 The nature and purpose of religion
1:45:00
doooovid
press 1 if Claire is wiping the floor with TJump
1:45:35
Sunflower
also this is the list of countries that have had nationalized atheism: the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, and Cuba are or were officially atheist.'
1:45:53
Perfict1
If the people existed before religion, then their beliefs would have no religious basis.
1:46:00 I am accused of hypocrisy.
1:46:35
zpd
That's not what hypocrisy is btw
1:46:40
ProChinchilla
yea
1:46:42
Colin Sixhitter
No Claire is middle class English
1:47:00 TJump cannot think of a group of atheists in history.
1:47:14
Phantorang
Not "instructive" discussion? For Claire it should be very intstructive, but for the rest of us, it ahs not been lol
1:47:33
Ben Noach
Which ones?
1:47:46
Sunflower
the entire population of people who dont believe in religion was wiped out, and then slowly began to trickle back into the world, mostly during/after the enlightenment (there were a few before tho)
1:48:09
David H
Anyone know what Secular Koranism mean?
1:48:37
Sunflower
if tjump could point to a currently functioning society that predates religion and never adopted religion of any kind, that would perfectly prove his argument here
1:48:00 Golden Rule
1:49:00 Confucius was a proponent of the Golden Rule.
1:49:02
Jay G
Where is the evidence that the Golden rule predates religion?
Rabbi Hillel and the Silver Rule
Jainism and Buddhism
1:49:36
Fubar
“People weren’t secular before religion because the word hadn’t yet been invented” - I’m dying over here
1:50:00 TJump: "They [theists] stole from our worldview."
1:50:05
doooovid
Finish him Claire, you got TJump on the ropes
1:50:17
Sunflower
whats the source on 'do not lie, do not kill' etc, existing in pre-religious societies?
1:50:29
Sunflower
Do u guys just accept that claim without asking for any proof or citation whatsoever ? lmao
1:51:00 TJump: The Ten Commandments of God was plagiarised from atheists.
1:51:00
Udhehf Hehcuw
sunflower "do not lie" had to be invented when religion came about
1:51:18
Perfict1
"Love your neighbor", predates historical record. "Love your enemy", predates Christianity.
1:51:25
Church of Entropy
is TJ sure he wants to follow that line of logic to its concloosion
1:51:36
Nacasius
Member (2 months)
Humanism is by default our oldest moral code
1:51:38
doooovid
@Kyle - TJump just keeps on repeating his same talking points he always does, and acts like it is a philosophy 101 class, and does not actually address the points
1:52:04
PheseantNetsuke
@TJump can you go in for the kill, this is getting hard to watch
1:52:17
doooovid
TJump just gives some random analogy that has little to do with topic, and claims victory, that is his strategy, every time same thing. Even Claire beats TJump easy
1:52:38
Sunflower
people behaving a certain way or not behaving a certain way does not entail an explicit "ought" like the ones that we get from religion
1:52:40
Josh Wainer
Laws of the Hittites - 200 years The code of Hammurabi - 300 yearsThe code of Eshnunna - 500 yearsThe code of Ur-Nammu 600 yearsUrukagina’s Code 1,000 years
1:52:42
Udhehf Hehcuw
I think Tjump is really arguing a dumb and wrong point here. this doesn't make a difference in which society is better
1:52:51
Sunflower
im just as curious as Claire about this
1:53:06
Ben Noach
sophistry
1:53:13
Norfolk Iceni
Claire's moral religious condescending sanctimonious crown slips!
1:53:13
Sunflower
@cazzac Buddhism is a religion dude
1:53:30
Udhehf Hehcuw
sunflower that's totally wrong. just look at animals who have morals. are you saying dogs and elephants believe in God?
1:53:44
Ray Gowlett
If you know where they come from...just tell her.
1:53:54
Sunflower
@Udhehf Hehcuw I dont think that animals have morals.
1:54:00 TJump cannot name a single authority in academia for the proposition that theists built on the achievements atheists.
1:54:04
Mike
Claire destroyed Tjump in this debate
1:54:31
Udhehf Hehcuw
sunflower I don't see any distinction between say some Apes who clearly show similar morals to us, and us
1:54:34
Norfolk Iceni
Fkn sick of religious people taking the moral high ground, WD
1:54:35
Sunflower
@Udhehf Hehcuw Just because something behaves in a way that resembles moral notions that we understand, does not mean they actually comprehend and intentionally 'act morally'...
1:54:49
David H
of course athiesm pre-dates religion - it is just common sense
1:55:07
Sunflower
@Udhehf Hehcuw So if an ape is WILLING to kill, but simply never has to, you couldnt say 'this ape clearly abides by the moral law "Do not kill" - because look, he never kills anything!'
Laws of the Hittites - 200 years The code of Hammurabi - 300 yearsThe code of Eshnunna - 500 yearsThe code of Ur-Nammu 600 yearsUrukagina’s Code 1,000 years
1:55:13
Woody
how could religion predate atheism lol 😀
1:55:16
Udhehf Hehcuw
sunflower we can analyze the way we act according to our morals and find similes in the animal kingdom.
1:56:00 TJump: "Neanderthals were secular."
1:56:06
Sunflower
@Udhehf Hehcuw If an ape is willing to kill or lie or steal etc, but it never encounters a situation where those things would be beneficial, how can you ever deduce that the ape has morals?
1:56:07
Udhehf Hehcuw
sunflower we observe apes have similar morals to us in regards to killing. they will kill in similar situations as us, like when one of their own is a danger
