Abdassamad Clarke
7 August 2017 ·
The problem with Empire.
When a people expand their reach until they come to dominate a great many others, it has an invigorating effect on them culturally. Their horizons are broadened immeasurably and they become world citizens.
Later, with the shrinking of empire, they succumb to the senility of old age and to a new kind of parochiality that is all the worse because it has the arrogance of the imperial power along with ignorance of their new reality.
Thus, our political class of today in the UK are perhaps the most ignorant we have ever had of the world as it is today but carry themselves with all the swagger of a world dominating power.
But similar fates befell those before us. A late Arab historian in Cairo failed to record the fall of Granada and the opening of Constantinople to Islam, events with which he was contemporary, because they did not fit within the Arab narrative in which he lived. In that he was the diametrical opposite of Ibn Khaldun who was acutely aware of the age in which he lived and the world of his time.
Such shortsightedness as that of the Cairene historian do not fit well with Islam which prepares Muslims not to be world conquerors but world citizens.
Regrettably, it is all too fashionable for Muslims today to view the world through the myopic lens of a once-great power, rather than doing what Islam equips us to do: to see the world and the age as they are and to act for the best in that context.
"Lord, show us the truth as true and help us to follow it, and show us the false as false and help us to avoid it."
Claire Khaw
Empires are like being born. Once you are born, death is inevitable.
Abdassamad Clarke
Empire is already something that is quite late in the process.
Claire Khaw
What is this "process" to which you refer?
Abdassamad Clarke
The civilisational process from birth to death. Empire is not a birth.
Claire Khaw
All empires decline, do they not?
Abdassamad Clarke
Indeed they do.
For example, the Roman Republic has a centuries long history before it becomes Empire.
British expansionism only becomes Empire quite late in the story.
Claire Khaw
All empires started as city-states, probably.
Abdassamad Clarke
And even the city state didn't come out of nowhere.
Claire Khaw
Where does the city-state come from?
Abdassamad Clarke
People, individuals and families, tribes and clans.
[My comment was deleted by Clarke, but I know it contained a video he clearly found objectionable in his barely disguised antisemitism. Comparing Jews to verminous cockroaches and denying that Jews are God's Chosen People is conclusive evidence of antisemitism, it it not? After all, you don't even have to believe in God to acknowledge that the scripture of Jews declares them to be God's Chosen People. As a Muslim as well as an Islamic scholar, Clarke should already know that quran.com/17/104 is unambiguously Zionist and Jews are mentioned many times in the Koran which refers to Jews as "Children of Israel". God may have cursed Jews but He has not revoked their status as His Chosen People.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/references-to-jews-in-the-koran
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis%2017:7&version=NKJV
Genesis 17:7
We can see that his antisemitism would prevent him from seeking either their help or co-operation in declaring Christianity kaput to be replaced by Islam. Indeed, he goes so far as to suppress my ideas while refusing to engage with me about them.
I like to think that Ultra Orthodox rabbis would have no difficulty declaring Secular Koranism to be more Noahide than Christianity. I also expect the rabbinical consensus to be that Christianity is bottom of the heap because of its idolatry and blasphemy, bearing in mind Jews are forbidden to enter churches which are places of abomination where idolatry is practised but are allowed to worship with Muslims in mosques.]
http://thevoiceofreason-ann.blogspot.com/2014/05/secular-koranism.html
https://radicalisedrabbi.blogspot.com/2020/02/noahide-ranking-of-other-four-world.html
Abdassamad Clarke
If they were chosen, they would not have had the terrible suffering that they had. That is a very masochistic idea of chosenness.
Survival alone is no proof of chosenness. The cockroach is the most resilient of creatures.
In any case, this is a thread about empire, and since the Jews have no empire this is not really germane to our story.
Claire Khaw
We must compare like with like. Tribes are not to be compared with cockroaches since cockroaches, as far as we know, are not capable of conceiving of and worshipping God.
Abdassamad Clarke
Every creature worships God.
Everything glorifies Him, but we don't have knowledge of their glorification.
Claire Khaw
Jews are the only people in the world not allowed to acquire empire because the borders of Israel have already been defined in the Torah. Since this is so, they are not permitted to acquire a global empire to make the rest of the world bend to their view as the Americans have done. The best way for Jews to Noahidise the world would therefore be to declare Christianity the least Noahide of all the gentile religions, which is what Orthodox rabbis already believe anyway. Once the penny drops, Islam would become the only rational and moral choice to replace it.
Abdassamad Clarke
You are talking of survival as proof of chosenness, which is a fallacy, as illustrated by my example. The chosenness of the Children of Israel ceased with the lives of John and Jesus, peace be upon him, whom, in the main, they denied.
Claire Khaw
Who said so?
Abdassamad Clarke
History.
Claire, since you are merely diverting the topic on to the issue that you are determined to pursue, please desist.
If you wish to promote your ideas of the Qur'an, the entire internet is your province and you may start any discussion you wish on any of the social media you wish and discuss with whomever you like of rabbis, christians and Muslims. But I do not permit people to use my threads for their own purposes.
Desist.
7 August 2017 ·
The problem with Empire.
When a people expand their reach until they come to dominate a great many others, it has an invigorating effect on them culturally. Their horizons are broadened immeasurably and they become world citizens.
Later, with the shrinking of empire, they succumb to the senility of old age and to a new kind of parochiality that is all the worse because it has the arrogance of the imperial power along with ignorance of their new reality.
Thus, our political class of today in the UK are perhaps the most ignorant we have ever had of the world as it is today but carry themselves with all the swagger of a world dominating power.
But similar fates befell those before us. A late Arab historian in Cairo failed to record the fall of Granada and the opening of Constantinople to Islam, events with which he was contemporary, because they did not fit within the Arab narrative in which he lived. In that he was the diametrical opposite of Ibn Khaldun who was acutely aware of the age in which he lived and the world of his time.
Such shortsightedness as that of the Cairene historian do not fit well with Islam which prepares Muslims not to be world conquerors but world citizens.
Regrettably, it is all too fashionable for Muslims today to view the world through the myopic lens of a once-great power, rather than doing what Islam equips us to do: to see the world and the age as they are and to act for the best in that context.
"Lord, show us the truth as true and help us to follow it, and show us the false as false and help us to avoid it."
Claire Khaw
Empires are like being born. Once you are born, death is inevitable.
Abdassamad Clarke
Empire is already something that is quite late in the process.
Claire Khaw
What is this "process" to which you refer?
Abdassamad Clarke
The civilisational process from birth to death. Empire is not a birth.
Claire Khaw
All empires decline, do they not?
Abdassamad Clarke
Indeed they do.
For example, the Roman Republic has a centuries long history before it becomes Empire.
British expansionism only becomes Empire quite late in the story.
Claire Khaw
All empires started as city-states, probably.
Abdassamad Clarke
And even the city state didn't come out of nowhere.
Claire Khaw
Where does the city-state come from?
Abdassamad Clarke
People, individuals and families, tribes and clans.
[My comment was deleted by Clarke, but I know it contained a video he clearly found objectionable in his barely disguised antisemitism. Comparing Jews to verminous cockroaches and denying that Jews are God's Chosen People is conclusive evidence of antisemitism, it it not? After all, you don't even have to believe in God to acknowledge that the scripture of Jews declares them to be God's Chosen People. As a Muslim as well as an Islamic scholar, Clarke should already know that quran.com/17/104 is unambiguously Zionist and Jews are mentioned many times in the Koran which refers to Jews as "Children of Israel". God may have cursed Jews but He has not revoked their status as His Chosen People.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/references-to-jews-in-the-koran
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis%2017:7&version=NKJV
Genesis 17:7
And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.
We can see that his antisemitism would prevent him from seeking either their help or co-operation in declaring Christianity kaput to be replaced by Islam. Indeed, he goes so far as to suppress my ideas while refusing to engage with me about them.
I like to think that Ultra Orthodox rabbis would have no difficulty declaring Secular Koranism to be more Noahide than Christianity. I also expect the rabbinical consensus to be that Christianity is bottom of the heap because of its idolatry and blasphemy, bearing in mind Jews are forbidden to enter churches which are places of abomination where idolatry is practised but are allowed to worship with Muslims in mosques.]
http://thevoiceofreason-ann.blogspot.com/2014/05/secular-koranism.html
https://radicalisedrabbi.blogspot.com/2020/02/noahide-ranking-of-other-four-world.html
Abdassamad Clarke
If they were chosen, they would not have had the terrible suffering that they had. That is a very masochistic idea of chosenness.
Survival alone is no proof of chosenness. The cockroach is the most resilient of creatures.
In any case, this is a thread about empire, and since the Jews have no empire this is not really germane to our story.
Claire Khaw
We must compare like with like. Tribes are not to be compared with cockroaches since cockroaches, as far as we know, are not capable of conceiving of and worshipping God.
Abdassamad Clarke
Every creature worships God.
Everything glorifies Him, but we don't have knowledge of their glorification.
Claire Khaw
Jews are the only people in the world not allowed to acquire empire because the borders of Israel have already been defined in the Torah. Since this is so, they are not permitted to acquire a global empire to make the rest of the world bend to their view as the Americans have done. The best way for Jews to Noahidise the world would therefore be to declare Christianity the least Noahide of all the gentile religions, which is what Orthodox rabbis already believe anyway. Once the penny drops, Islam would become the only rational and moral choice to replace it.
Abdassamad Clarke
You are talking of survival as proof of chosenness, which is a fallacy, as illustrated by my example. The chosenness of the Children of Israel ceased with the lives of John and Jesus, peace be upon him, whom, in the main, they denied.
Claire Khaw
Who said so?
Abdassamad Clarke
History.
Claire, since you are merely diverting the topic on to the issue that you are determined to pursue, please desist.
If you wish to promote your ideas of the Qur'an, the entire internet is your province and you may start any discussion you wish on any of the social media you wish and discuss with whomever you like of rabbis, christians and Muslims. But I do not permit people to use my threads for their own purposes.
Desist.
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