Claire,
This person found me through my commenting on a Noahide blog. He contacted me to discuss Noahidism further and he mentioned your YouTube channel. He thought we might have things in common, but as it's turning out, we are quite polar opposites. I think the only thing in common is that we are both trying to fundamentally change systems.
The Noahide Laws are based on the Torah, not the Koran. Yes, on the surface there is nothing objectionable on these basic laws. It comes down to who is God and what is idolatry. To call what you want Secular but still want some form of worship is confusing and/or misleading. I don't understand how you think you can somehow convince secular and atheists to agree to that. I think you would be better off just having whatever laws you want but leave God out of it.
I don't think I can agree that Islam is more Noahide than Christianity. They both have equal problems. At least Christians worship יהוה as the foundation. They just think either he came as a man or his son. The 10 Commandments are supposed to be their basic laws, however they have fallen away from them due to Secularism. Islam as I stated before, does not worship the God of Israel although they have very similar moral concepts, beliefs and practices in a general sense. To me, it doesn't even seem necessary to include Noahide Laws. Why can't you just use these same principles from the Koran? Why mix them?
No. Jews are not meant to set the standards on gentiles. That's not how it's supposed to work. The Jews, by obeying all the Commandments of the Torah, become as a whole, a society that the nation's look to to see for themselves the wisdom of God's Laws and strive to adhere to those same laws themselves. Since not all Jews are obeying the Commandments, this is why the nation's are in turmoil, and why there is anti-Semitism. To correct this, Jews need to understand they need to obey the Torah - in the Land of Israel. The minimum standard are the Ten Commandments, not the Noahide Laws. I don't concern myself with any of the other religions. It's my contention that all nation's will eventually fail until the Jews get their own act together. That's my focus.
There is already a divide between US Jews and Israeli Jews. Chabad, despite it's flawed theology, are the only ones trying to bring non observant Jews (meaning secular and atheists) back to the Torah. Them and Breslov. So other sects are hesitate to say anything. Yes, Israelis are fed up with being a vassal state of the US. Our current PM is weak. The same tensions are boiling up here as they are in the US. My thought is that things have to get worse and democracy to fail in order for people to want to choose something else.
On Education and Sharing Day: To me, this is all political pandering. Pandering to Jews just as they pander to the Blacks in regards to Black History month, or what about Biden just saying he thinks there should be more Islam taught in schools? But wouldn't that be what you would want? America is going forced Socialist/Communist which means no religion so I don't know how you can think it will go Noahide.
I think I've responded to all your comments. Feel free to respond to mine.
On Wednesday, 12 August 2020, 16:48:15 BST, wrote:
Claire,
This person found me through my commenting on a Noahide blog. He contacted me to discuss Noahidism further and he mentioned your YouTube channel. He thought we might have things in common, but as it's turning out, we are quite polar opposites. I think the only thing in common is that we are both trying to fundamentally change systems.
The Noahide Laws are based on the Torah, not the Koran. Yes, on the surface there is nothing objectionable on these basic laws. It comes down to who is God and what is idolatry. To call what you want Secular but still want some form of worship is confusing and/or misleading. I don't understand how you think you can somehow convince secular and atheists to agree to that. I think you would be better off just having whatever laws you want but leave God out of it.
I don't know where you got the impression that I "want some form of worship" under Secular Koranism. It guarantees freedom of belief with quran.com/2/256
I have never claimed Secular Koranism is a religion at all. It is a legal system, not a belief system. A belief system requires you to believe and affirm a particular narrative eg that an executed revolutionary is the co-equal of the supreme and eternal Abrahamic God, the narrative of the Nicene creed etc. For this reason, there is no requirement that you believe in the Islamic narrative at all to support Secular Koranism. In fact, Secular Koranism is only interested in the commands and prohibitions of the Koran and ignores all its stories as well as the threats and promises of God.
You could be an atheist and still support Secular Koranism if you see yourself benefiting from lower crime, lower taxes, fewer laws, stable marriages, stable families, a stable currency, a stable economy and a stable society. If you want to be a married parent properly parenting your legitimate offspring, you would support Secular Koranism. If you have no intention or prospect of becoming a married parent, you would not be interested in making the sacrifices necessary to restore the patriarchy ie the forbidding and punishing of extramarital sex.
It would not be illogical for a nation of atheists or non-Muslims to adopt Secular Koranism if they see the wisdom of these laws.
I don't think I can agree that Islam is more Noahide than Christianity. They both have equal problems. At least Christians worship יהוה as the foundation. They just think either he came as a man or his son. The 10 Commandments are supposed to be their basic laws, however they have fallen away from them due to Secularism. Islam as I stated before, does not worship the God of Israel although they have very similar moral concepts, beliefs and practices in a general sense. To me, it doesn't even seem necessary to include Noahide Laws. Why can't you just use these same principles from the Koran? Why mix them?
Is it the case that you think Muslims worship a different God to Jews and Christians?
Do you not think worshipping an executed revolutionary as the co-equal of the supreme and eternal Abrahamic God - as the Doctrine of the Trinity requires - is ipso facto idolatry?
Why do you think Muslims worship a different God to Jews and Christians?
Are you aware that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are described as the Abrahamic faiths? This means that Jews, Christians and Muslims worship the same Abrahamic God.
What do you mean by "include the Noahide laws"? Include them in what?
Why can't I use what same principles from the Koran to do what?
What have I mixed what with in what way?
No. Jews are not meant to set the standards on gentiles. That's not how it's supposed to work. The Jews, by obeying all the Commandments of the Torah, become as a whole, a society that the nation's look to to see for themselves the wisdom of God's Laws and strive to adhere to those same laws themselves. Since not all Jews are obeying the Commandments, this is why the nation's are in turmoil, and why there is anti-Semitism. To correct this, Jews need to understand they need to obey the Torah - in the Land of Israel. The minimum standard are the Ten Commandments, not the Noahide Laws. I don't concern myself with any of the other religions. It's my contention that all nation's will eventually fail until the Jews get their own act together. That's my focus.
For what purpose do you think God made Jews His Chosen People?
What is the purpose of the Noahide laws other than to set a universal minimum standard of morality?
If Jews were the people who set minimum standards, then it is implicit that they adhere to a higher standard themselves. We already know that what is kosher is halal, but what is halal is not kosher, and that one suffers more restrictions as a Jew than as a Muslim. It has been said that Islam is "Judaism Lite". I am saying Secular Koranism is "Islam Lite".
If Jews are not even Noahide in Israel, then it will be very difficult for them to go from 0 to 100 miles in one minute towards a Torah theocracy. I am suggesting that Israeli Jews - both religious and secular - might like to try my proposed "starter theocracy" of Secular Koranism.
Don't you think Secular Koranism would help Jews "get their act together"? It is more likely to create the conditions for Jews to be better Jews than living under its current globohomo government.
There is already a divide between US Jews and Israeli Jews. Chabad, despite it's flawed theology, are the only ones trying to bring non observant Jews (meaning secular and atheists) back to the Torah. Them and Breslov. So other sects are hesitate to say anything. Yes, Israelis are fed up with being a vassal state of the US. Our current PM is weak. The same tensions are boiling up here as they are in the US. My thought is that things have to get worse and democracy to fail in order for people to want to choose something else.
On Education and Sharing Day: To me, this is all political pandering. Pandering to Jews just as they pander to the Blacks in regards to Black History month, or what about Biden just saying he thinks there should be more Islam taught in schools? But wouldn't that be what you would want? America is going forced Socialist/Communist which means no religion so I don't know how you can think it will go Noahide.
I think I've responded to all your comments. Feel free to respond to mine.
I am not predicting that America is about to go Noahide since it will only do so if it became a one-party theocracy governed by the principles of Secular Koranism. However, if Jews finally began to discuss the possibility of Israel becoming a theocracy, it might become increasingly popular as the failure of Christianity and democracy becomes increasingly obvious to those who identify as Christians and Liberal Democrats. If Israel were to adopt Secular Koranism and become a theocracy, it might lead Western nations to adopt this model of government too. In this way would Israel become light unto the nations!
Discussing the Noahide laws with "Pure Judaism" 1
Discussing the Noahide laws with "Pure Judaism" 3
This person found me through my commenting on a Noahide blog. He contacted me to discuss Noahidism further and he mentioned your YouTube channel. He thought we might have things in common, but as it's turning out, we are quite polar opposites. I think the only thing in common is that we are both trying to fundamentally change systems.
The Noahide Laws are based on the Torah, not the Koran. Yes, on the surface there is nothing objectionable on these basic laws. It comes down to who is God and what is idolatry. To call what you want Secular but still want some form of worship is confusing and/or misleading. I don't understand how you think you can somehow convince secular and atheists to agree to that. I think you would be better off just having whatever laws you want but leave God out of it.
I don't think I can agree that Islam is more Noahide than Christianity. They both have equal problems. At least Christians worship יהוה as the foundation. They just think either he came as a man or his son. The 10 Commandments are supposed to be their basic laws, however they have fallen away from them due to Secularism. Islam as I stated before, does not worship the God of Israel although they have very similar moral concepts, beliefs and practices in a general sense. To me, it doesn't even seem necessary to include Noahide Laws. Why can't you just use these same principles from the Koran? Why mix them?
No. Jews are not meant to set the standards on gentiles. That's not how it's supposed to work. The Jews, by obeying all the Commandments of the Torah, become as a whole, a society that the nation's look to to see for themselves the wisdom of God's Laws and strive to adhere to those same laws themselves. Since not all Jews are obeying the Commandments, this is why the nation's are in turmoil, and why there is anti-Semitism. To correct this, Jews need to understand they need to obey the Torah - in the Land of Israel. The minimum standard are the Ten Commandments, not the Noahide Laws. I don't concern myself with any of the other religions. It's my contention that all nation's will eventually fail until the Jews get their own act together. That's my focus.
There is already a divide between US Jews and Israeli Jews. Chabad, despite it's flawed theology, are the only ones trying to bring non observant Jews (meaning secular and atheists) back to the Torah. Them and Breslov. So other sects are hesitate to say anything. Yes, Israelis are fed up with being a vassal state of the US. Our current PM is weak. The same tensions are boiling up here as they are in the US. My thought is that things have to get worse and democracy to fail in order for people to want to choose something else.
On Education and Sharing Day: To me, this is all political pandering. Pandering to Jews just as they pander to the Blacks in regards to Black History month, or what about Biden just saying he thinks there should be more Islam taught in schools? But wouldn't that be what you would want? America is going forced Socialist/Communist which means no religion so I don't know how you can think it will go Noahide.
I think I've responded to all your comments. Feel free to respond to mine.
RADICALISED RABBI TO PURE JUDAISM
On Wednesday, 12 August 2020, 16:48:15 BST, wrote:
Claire,
This person found me through my commenting on a Noahide blog. He contacted me to discuss Noahidism further and he mentioned your YouTube channel. He thought we might have things in common, but as it's turning out, we are quite polar opposites. I think the only thing in common is that we are both trying to fundamentally change systems.
The Noahide Laws are based on the Torah, not the Koran. Yes, on the surface there is nothing objectionable on these basic laws. It comes down to who is God and what is idolatry. To call what you want Secular but still want some form of worship is confusing and/or misleading. I don't understand how you think you can somehow convince secular and atheists to agree to that. I think you would be better off just having whatever laws you want but leave God out of it.
I don't know where you got the impression that I "want some form of worship" under Secular Koranism. It guarantees freedom of belief with quran.com/2/256
I have never claimed Secular Koranism is a religion at all. It is a legal system, not a belief system. A belief system requires you to believe and affirm a particular narrative eg that an executed revolutionary is the co-equal of the supreme and eternal Abrahamic God, the narrative of the Nicene creed etc. For this reason, there is no requirement that you believe in the Islamic narrative at all to support Secular Koranism. In fact, Secular Koranism is only interested in the commands and prohibitions of the Koran and ignores all its stories as well as the threats and promises of God.
You could be an atheist and still support Secular Koranism if you see yourself benefiting from lower crime, lower taxes, fewer laws, stable marriages, stable families, a stable currency, a stable economy and a stable society. If you want to be a married parent properly parenting your legitimate offspring, you would support Secular Koranism. If you have no intention or prospect of becoming a married parent, you would not be interested in making the sacrifices necessary to restore the patriarchy ie the forbidding and punishing of extramarital sex.
It would not be illogical for a nation of atheists or non-Muslims to adopt Secular Koranism if they see the wisdom of these laws.
I don't think I can agree that Islam is more Noahide than Christianity. They both have equal problems. At least Christians worship יהוה as the foundation. They just think either he came as a man or his son. The 10 Commandments are supposed to be their basic laws, however they have fallen away from them due to Secularism. Islam as I stated before, does not worship the God of Israel although they have very similar moral concepts, beliefs and practices in a general sense. To me, it doesn't even seem necessary to include Noahide Laws. Why can't you just use these same principles from the Koran? Why mix them?
Is it the case that you think Muslims worship a different God to Jews and Christians?
Do you not think worshipping an executed revolutionary as the co-equal of the supreme and eternal Abrahamic God - as the Doctrine of the Trinity requires - is ipso facto idolatry?
Why do you think Muslims worship a different God to Jews and Christians?
Are you aware that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are described as the Abrahamic faiths? This means that Jews, Christians and Muslims worship the same Abrahamic God.
What do you mean by "include the Noahide laws"? Include them in what?
Why can't I use what same principles from the Koran to do what?
What have I mixed what with in what way?
No. Jews are not meant to set the standards on gentiles. That's not how it's supposed to work. The Jews, by obeying all the Commandments of the Torah, become as a whole, a society that the nation's look to to see for themselves the wisdom of God's Laws and strive to adhere to those same laws themselves. Since not all Jews are obeying the Commandments, this is why the nation's are in turmoil, and why there is anti-Semitism. To correct this, Jews need to understand they need to obey the Torah - in the Land of Israel. The minimum standard are the Ten Commandments, not the Noahide Laws. I don't concern myself with any of the other religions. It's my contention that all nation's will eventually fail until the Jews get their own act together. That's my focus.
For what purpose do you think God made Jews His Chosen People?
What is the purpose of the Noahide laws other than to set a universal minimum standard of morality?
If Jews were the people who set minimum standards, then it is implicit that they adhere to a higher standard themselves. We already know that what is kosher is halal, but what is halal is not kosher, and that one suffers more restrictions as a Jew than as a Muslim. It has been said that Islam is "Judaism Lite". I am saying Secular Koranism is "Islam Lite".
If Jews are not even Noahide in Israel, then it will be very difficult for them to go from 0 to 100 miles in one minute towards a Torah theocracy. I am suggesting that Israeli Jews - both religious and secular - might like to try my proposed "starter theocracy" of Secular Koranism.
Don't you think Secular Koranism would help Jews "get their act together"? It is more likely to create the conditions for Jews to be better Jews than living under its current globohomo government.
There is already a divide between US Jews and Israeli Jews. Chabad, despite it's flawed theology, are the only ones trying to bring non observant Jews (meaning secular and atheists) back to the Torah. Them and Breslov. So other sects are hesitate to say anything. Yes, Israelis are fed up with being a vassal state of the US. Our current PM is weak. The same tensions are boiling up here as they are in the US. My thought is that things have to get worse and democracy to fail in order for people to want to choose something else.
On Education and Sharing Day: To me, this is all political pandering. Pandering to Jews just as they pander to the Blacks in regards to Black History month, or what about Biden just saying he thinks there should be more Islam taught in schools? But wouldn't that be what you would want? America is going forced Socialist/Communist which means no religion so I don't know how you can think it will go Noahide.
I think I've responded to all your comments. Feel free to respond to mine.
I am not predicting that America is about to go Noahide since it will only do so if it became a one-party theocracy governed by the principles of Secular Koranism. However, if Jews finally began to discuss the possibility of Israel becoming a theocracy, it might become increasingly popular as the failure of Christianity and democracy becomes increasingly obvious to those who identify as Christians and Liberal Democrats. If Israel were to adopt Secular Koranism and become a theocracy, it might lead Western nations to adopt this model of government too. In this way would Israel become light unto the nations!
Discussing the Noahide laws with "Pure Judaism" 1
Discussing the Noahide laws with "Pure Judaism" 3
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