1. If the Abrahamic God exists, we should be guided by Him.
2. If we wish to be guided by a Higher Power to mortal fallible men, we should consider the Koran because it is said to be from the Abrahamic God who first revealed Torah to Jews then the Koran to gentiles, after dividing humanity into Jews and gentiles.
3. We should consider the possibility that God if He exists created Jews and gentiles to police each other's behaviour and punish each other for disobedience to God's laws.
4. If we are sceptical of the source of Koran, we should nevertheless allow ourselves to be guided by it, unless we know of a better guide to humanity.
5. Even if we are sceptical of God's existence, we should still consider the possibility that He might exist, and wonder if our suffering and other evils might have been avoided if we had obeyed His laws.
1) Why should we follow God's laws just in case He exists. Surely we should follow laws because they are morally right. Also this statement assumes that Koranism is God's law which is clearly false. I actually agree we should follow God's laws as He does exist (or rather we can't show that He doesn't). That means that if I follow secular Koranism I am BREAKING God's laws. There has only ever been one mass revelation of God's laws from God Himself to a whole people. That was when God gave the Torah to the Jews. Every other claim is that God gave His law to a single person who then spread it to others. So that's no longer God's law but an individual and not God's law. So we must NOT follow secular Koranism but Torah Law.
ReplyDelete2) Even the Quran doesn't say that it was revealed directly to Mohammed by God. It was via the angel Gabriel. SO the only law revealed by God directly to man is the Torah and that's what we MUST follow.
3) Nowhere is there any statement that Jews and gentiles should punish each other for disobedience to the Torah. In fact if God is all powerful why can't He do the punishing - and make it clear that it's HIs law. If we depend on humans punishing humans it's because God has passed that role to humans as part of His law. So that means we follow the Torah teachings only. As anything later would make God a liar and not perfect. If perfect then why give the Law a 2nd time. God knows mankind is imperfect so you build that into the law i.e. the Torah
4) The Quran is a poor version of the Torah - which is why it must be rejected at the time of the Meshiach. Even Mr Yosef Mizrachi would agree with this.
5) The whole question of why people suffer is much more complex - as otherwise why do sinners prosper and righteous people suffer. (And Mizrachi's explanation is one of many but is not actually widely held and is verging on heretical - and the way he puts it across it probably is heretical).
Isn't Christianity about love.
Jews should know that Christians worship a man executed for blasphemy as the co-equal of the Abrahamic God he is alleged to have blasphemed against.
ReplyDeleteDo you really expect gentiles to follow the Torah when they have the Koran?
Buddhism and Hinduism are low status religions that do not come with the rule of law.
Oh please.... do some REAL research. To call Buddhism and Hinduism low status is elitist, potentially racist and wrong. They have as much culture and civilisation as Islam and if you bothered to do any research you'd also know they come with laws too.
ReplyDeleteAs for expecting gentiles to follow the Torah - why not? Makes more sense than a false, man-made text by a possible epileptic / paedophilic murderer.
Why would I be foisting religions of fallen civilisations on the West?
ReplyDeleteAs a Jew, you should know that there are 36 capital crimes in the Torah.
The Quran comes from Mohammed. The Torah comes from God.
ReplyDeleteIf you believe in God it makes no sense at all to follow the Quran. You follow the word of God directly i.e. the Torah. OR if you misinterpret some of God's prophets, you follow Christianity. But following Mohammed is nonsense.
And where do you get the idea of a fallen civilisation. That's the West, not India.
Look at the immorality in the West. Compare that to India.
How would you measure immorality?
ReplyDeleteOn a scale of 1-10
ReplyDeleteIslamic countries generally rank pretty low because of their adherence to murder and lack of justice and willingness to maim and torture people.
How to identify the ideological Amalek
ReplyDeleteMoral systems can be categorised as follows:
Most in conformity with the Noahide laws ie in conformity with all seven
In conformity with only 6
In conformity with only 5
In conformity with only 4
In conformity with only 3
In conformity with only 2
In conformity with only 1
In conformity with none
Actively promoting 1 of these ie murder/theft/sexual immorality/eating animals alive/breakdown of the rule of law/idolatry/blasphemy
Actively promoting 2 of these
Actively promoting 3 of these
Actively promoting 4 of these
Actively promoting 5 of these
Actively promoting 6 of these
Actively promoting all 7 of these
Muslims define Satan as rebellion from God, meaning rebellion from God's laws, presumably.
How to identify the ideological Amalek.
ReplyDeleteBeen there. Got that. Had the t-shirt.
Washed it and found the dye ran and the t-shirt broke up as it was such poor quality.
The Noahide laws are basically a tick list with 7 tick boxes. The more of them you tick, the more Noahide you are.
ReplyDeleteNope!
ReplyDeleteYour problem is that Jews and their rabbis are not interested in telling Christians that Christianity is kaput.
ReplyDeleteI have been doing it on your behalves, but it is not the same coming from me.
Telling Christians that Christianity is kaput as well as idolatry and blasphemy will not be received seriously until and unless all your chief rabbis do it.
Jews who are concerned about the direction of human civilisation should tell their rabbis to tell their Chief Rabbis to ask the Pope, Archbishop of Canterbury and the Patriarchs of the Orthodox Church how and why Christianity is not idolatry and blasphemy.
Wouldn't you agree?
It can all be done over Zoom.
You can say it is payback time for the Disputation of Paris.
Why should they - when Islam is more false as a faith than Christianity. At least Christianity is based on God's words in the Torah, even if it is totally misinterpreted. Islam is based on the dreams and beliefs or a madman who thought he spoke to an angel who heard it from God.
ReplyDeleteSo
1) Judaism - first hand from God directly.
2) Christianity - 2nd hand - from misinterpretations of prophets who heard it from God directly.
3) Islam - 3rd hand - from misinterpretations of a man who claimed to hear it from the angel Gabriel who was supposed to be a representative of God.
On this basis, Islam is more kaput as a faith than Christianity. So you should go to all the imans and tell them to stop following Islam.
If I were you, I'd do this over Zoom as otherwise they'll kill you.
I am on reasonably good terms with Muslims.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think Rabbi Sacks omitted to mention the Noahide laws in his book on morality?
Because it's not relevant to what he was writing.
ReplyDeleteYou make out that the Noahide laws are a MAJOR part of Jewish thought and teaching. They aren't. They are quite minor AND more importantly much more complex than you make out.
Jews were made God's Chosen People who put them on a mission to Noahidise the world and punishes them when they don't do what they are supposed to do.
ReplyDeleteSo that's something to put in your pipe and smoke next time Tisha B'Av comes round.
I have just discovered that Tisha B'Av 5781 falls on my birthday.
As I said, you simplify things to too great an extent.
ReplyDeleteThe meshiach is also supposed to be born on Tisha B'Av - but as you follow Yosef Mizrachi, you won't qualify.
Even if you converted.
Here's a brief summary on the Noahide laws - that' OK. https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-noahide-laws/
It shows you over-simplify. Significantly it explains why Christianity is OK.
If you really want to know more - showing how little you do know there's this series of books. I can't vouch from them but they look OK.
https://www.amazon.com/Noahide-Laws-Complete-Volumes-1-22/dp/1949126013
Rabbis don't want to rank the gentile religions according to the Noahide law because they are afraid of antogonising the Christian antisemite.
ReplyDeleteIt really is as simple as that.
But now that things are coming to a head, you need to be thinking of doing what you people were made God's Chosen People to do.
It is just too bad that a shiksa like me has to bang on your door to tell you lot what you are supposed to be doing, but that is just part and parcel of your fallen state.
There are 11 Chief Rabbis, and they should all, preferably jointly with the Supreme Leader of Iran, ask the Pope etc how Christianity is not idolatry and blasphemy.
You know what these Christians did to Hashem, don't you?
They basically put in their blender Hashem, the Holy Spirit and the crucified Christ and came up with the Trinity.
After 2000 years, you can imagine that the patience of Hashem is wearing thin.
As before, you misinterpret Judaism like you misinterpret Islam and Christianity.
ReplyDeleteIt's this sort of thing that defines you as having Amalek tendencies!
Jesus never said he was the son of God so your image of the Trinity as a blender producing as blended paste of Father, Son and the Holy Spirit is false.
How do you know what Jesus said or didn't say?
ReplyDeleteAlso how is the trinity that different from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sefirot - except instead of God being manifest in 10 emanations, He is manifest in only 3 but all 3 are part of the eternal (Ein Sof). So there is the emanation of the father figure, the child (son) figure and the spirit figure. It's different to the Jewish idea but it's not idolatry.
ReplyDeleteYou are just confused about stuff that your lover - Yosef Mizrachi uses in his teachings (but doesn't normally explain so you've missed it - perhaps because he isn't a proper Rabbi and doesn't know how to explain this stuff).
BTW - note that the traditional drawing of the tree of life has 3 columns as each column has its own characteristics. This is also a trinity.
I don't think you know that Christians worship a Jew executed for blasphemy as the co-equal of Hashem, do you?
ReplyDeleteYou don't know that Christians hate Jews for being Christ-killers, do you?
It is so sad when people don't know who they are and why people hate them.
Hegel had a Trinity too but it is not the Doctrine of the Trinity, is it?
The Doctrine of the Trinity means something very specific.
While the Doctrine of the Trinity is a unit of three, many things can be bunched into a unit of three.
Jesus was not executed for blasphemy.
ReplyDeleteYou have obviously never read the article I shared with you on the Noahide laws.
You also continuously criticise Lord Rabbi Sacks because he didn't write a book the way you wanted him to. That's nonsense - and arrogance on your part. He wrote a book giving the JEWISH perspective and not the Khawist perspective which has nothing to do with authentic Judaism.
You keep going on about Christians but have no idea of the authentic Jewish view on idolatry and also Christianity and why Christians are not idol worshipers (unlike those who worship the Kaaba in Mecca).
Some Christians hate Jews. More Muslims now hate Jews. So what. Christianity today also does not hold Jews today as Christ killers.
And Judaism has a doctrine of 10 sephirot.
Just because you do not understand something doesn't mean it's not true.
Please explain to me all about dark matter, axions and reconcile quantum theory with relativity. OOPS - you can't. Does that mean it's not true or real.
Your approach is ignorant and naieve.
For what was Jesus executed?
ReplyDeleteSedition and anti Roman activity. Claiming to be King of the Jews was sedition or if others said you were, even if you didn't.
ReplyDeleteNowhere was jesus blasphemous. That's your supposition based on nothing.
Jesus never said he was God or God's son. That would have been meaningless to him, but not to pagans who were influenced by Roman beliefs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanhedrin_trial_of_Jesus
ReplyDeleteRemember Pilate washing his hands? He didn't want to execute Jesus.
All according to the NT which is a polemic and historically inaccurate to protect authors from the Romans.
ReplyDeletePilate was a despot.
And what about the quran"s account. Why dont you accept that. It may be more accurate.
Look up what Joaephus, Philo and tacitus say about Pilate. Much more likely to be accurate.
And the quran says jesus was not killed. Hindus claim he escaped and moved to India. More recent research from people like hyam maccabi who analysed the NT accounts also say jesus didn't die on the cross but was taken down and recovered.
It took 2 or more days to die. Jesus was on the cross for only a few hours before he was taken down, bandaged and put in a cool, sterile place recover that was protected.
3 days later he could get up and walk around.
Christians worship Jesus as God which is blasphemy and idolatry.
ReplyDeleteMuslims accept Jesus as a prophet of God so reasonable Christians have no reason to reject Islam other than racism, pride and Islamophobia. This means they are probably atheists who don't have the beginning of wisdom to fear God after disobeying His Commandments forbidding idolatry and blasphemy for 2000 years.
Learn Christianity. Your ignorance is almost as bad as your ignorance of Judaism. Jesus is an aspect of God. The loving aspect. Praying to Jesus is praying to God and neither blasphemy nor idolatry. Do you even know what these two words mean as it appears you don't from your constant misuse of them.
ReplyDeleteEverybody has a reason to disregard a person who slept with underage girls, murdered willfully, betrayed and made claims to be revealing God's word, when even his book says he had no direct teaching from God and all he did was relay the words of an intermediary.
The Doctrine of the Trinity says what it says in the Athanasian creed. Have you read it?
ReplyDeleteNo, I haven't
ReplyDeleteIt was based on Roman theology and has developed since. Its not static.
As for Islam. Believing a man like Mohammed means Muslims are probably atheists who don't have the beginning of wisdom to fear God after disobeying His commandments given on the Torah.
That's not Islamophobia. I don't hate Muslims at all. Just a cult that promotes murder, treachery and paedophilia.
Which Muslim promotes murder and paedophilia?
ReplyDeleteWhat treachery are you referring to?
This is a quotation from Thomas Aquinas.
ReplyDelete"""[Muhammad] seduced the people by promises of carnal pleasure to which the concupiscence of the flesh goads us. His teaching also contained precepts that were in conformity with his promises, and he gave free rein to carnal pleasure. In all this, as is not unexpected, he was obeyed by carnal men. As for proofs of the truth of his doctrine, he brought forward only such as could be grasped by the natural ability of anyone with a very modest wisdom... Nor do divine pronouncements on the part of preceding prophets offer him any witness. On the contrary, he perverts almost all the testimonies of the Old and New Testaments by making them into fabrications of his own, as can be seen by anyone who examines his law. It was, therefore, a shrewd decision on his part to forbid his followers to read the Old and New Testaments, lest these books convict him of falsity. It is thus clear that those who place any faith in his words believe foolishly".
And this doesn't mention any of these:
The killing of four merchants during the sacred month of Rajab;
The killing of 70 merchants and 900 men from Mecca;
The killing of the poets 'Asma' bint Marwan and Abu 'Afak;
The expelling of the Jewish tribe of Banu Qaynuqa going against earlier promises (i.e. treachery);
The marriage to a 6-year old (Aisha) with consummation when she was 9 and he was in his 50s;
Marriage to another man's wife who he got to divorce her (Zaynab bint Jahash) (see Quran 33:37).
Mohammed uses the idea of being a prophet from Judaism but ignores that according to Judaism there were no more prophets after the destruction of the 1st temple and that Malachi was the last prophet. This was because the role of prophets was to fight against idolatry and with the destruction of the 1st temple, true idolatry (not what you call idolatry) disappeared and so prophets were not needed.
Yet he perverts many of the Jewish ideas he claims to follow. He claims to be teaching God's word but was never spoken with by God. Just by Gabriel. There were no witnesses to this so it's Mohammed's word only about this. He could just as easily invented what he wanted as a war leader and cult leader. Lots of people have done that apart from Mohammed. Charles Manson, Sobhraj, L Ron Hubbard, Jim Jones, Reverent Moon.
Where Mohammed is different is that essentially he taught a moral code to pagans and brought them to the One True God. So even though he was deeply flawed, the results of his teachings are important and to be respected as they ended paganism in a lot of the world. For this reason the Quran and Islam should be respected as a half-way house between belief in nothing or pagan beliefs and the true word of God (as described in the Torah and revealed BY GOD HIMSELF to up to 2m people all at once - mass revelation versus drip-drip revelation of one man).
Mohammed didn't even do any miracles to prove that he was special. He just forced people to follow him and betrayed truces with those who didn't. So to revere the man is a mixed bag. I revere that he fought paganism and created a great religion that brought people to God. BUT it's not a religion that any Jew should ever follow or adopt and anybody who suggests they should is doing evil as they are taking people away from God's word. In fact they are trying to pick off those who know least, and attacking the weakest members which is exactly what the Amalekites did. This is one reason I say you show Amalekite tendencies as that is what you do with secular Koranism. WHich isn't even based on the Torah but on a book aimed at pagans.
You keep going on about the Noahide laws to try and suggest you are cognisant of Jewish beliefs for non-Jews but in fact you pervert these like you pervert the QUran. The whole concept is much more complicated than you make out and then you attack Lord Rabbi Sacks for putting across a Jewish view that you don't like or understand because it doesn't mention a specific term when the whole book relates to how people should behave.
ReplyDeleteTHIS IS WHY I KEEP TELLING YOU TO SPEAK LESS AND LEARN MORE.
Study. Read the WHOLE Torah and Tanach. (I have). Learn much more and then you'll appreciate why i'm saying this.
OR follow Islam properly - not like ISIS but for example Ibadi Islam which is very true to the original moral codes and was not perverted by later distortions e.g. by Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab around 300 years ago that's now essentially Sunni Islam, or by the Iranian Mullahs who perverted Shia Islam.
As you once said you knew nothing about Ibadi Islam, here's a primer on why it is more authentic.
Ibadi Islam predates that of other Islamic types, and Ibadism is an early and highly orthodox interpretation of Islam. The two primary qualifications of an Ibadi imam are that he is the most pious man of the community and the most learned in fiqh, or Islamic jurisprudence; and that he has the military knowledge to defend the Ibadi community against war and oppression - including from the other types of Islam.
Unlike the Sunni theory of the caliphate and the Shi'a notion of divinely appointed Imamate, the leaders of Ibadi Islam do not need to rule the entire Muslim world. Muslim communities are considered capable of ruling themselves.
Ibadis reject the belief that the leader of the Muslim community must be descended from the Quraysh tribe which differs from the Sunni's belief that ideally they should be ruled by a caliph who should be from the Quraysh tribe; and the Shia belief that ideally and eventually they will be ruled by the mahdi, who will be descended from Muhammad's Household (Ahl al-Bayt)
We cannot expect Aquinas who was a Catholic to be fair to non-Catholics, can we?
ReplyDeleteYou do know that Aquinas prostituted his intellect for the Catholic Church, don't you?
Christians are the biggest hypocrites of all, calling pagans "heathens" when they themselves are guilty of supreme idolatry and blasphemy.
All I can say about a Jew quoting Aquinas approvingly is "O tempora! O mores!"
Here we go again. I'll accept the criticism of Aquinas, but not your second point.
ReplyDeleteYou KEEP going on about Christians being guilty of idolatry and blasphemy. Actually they are guilty of idomy and blasphatry.
(No - I don't know what idomy and blasphatry are. But YOU don't know what idolatry and blasphemy are either. You make up definitions to suit yourself. Or maybe because you are an Islamist - and so look at things from this perspective. But this doesn't make it true).
CHRISTIANS ARE NEITHER IDOLATORS NOR BLASPHEMERS. READ THE DEFINITIONS OF EACH AND YOU WILL SEE THIS IS TRUE.
Some branches of Christianity are problematical as they break the law about graven images in the 10 commandments. This is not even in the Noahide laws so there is no problem there for them as non-Jews. They do NOT worship idols.
Would it be permissible for a Jew to go to the top of Florence Duomo (Dome on top of the Florence Cathedral).https://www.yeshiva.co/ask/6517
ReplyDeleteTHE ANSWER IS NO.
As I keep saying, learn more and speak less. The yeshiva.co answer is the ultra-strict answer. The point about Judaism is that there is very rarely a single answer - except "It depends". The circumstances and the individual asking are also important.
ReplyDeleteThis comes from a more normative ORTHODOX site - and is a series of questions on what can and cannot be done (and the answer in the question about the Florence Duomo is YES based on this).
https://outorah.org/p/51840/
NON-JEWISH PRAYER PLACES
Entering Church Not Dedicated to Prayer
You may enter parts of a church (meeting room, social hall, cemetery, etc.) or monastery as long as they are not dedicated for prayer.
Entering Church Sanctuary No Longer Used for Prayer
You may enter a church sanctuary that is no longer used for prayer.
Entering Dual-Use Church
If a church is used only infrequently for prayer services, a Jew may enter the church at other times but not during prayer services.
Example: You may enter the Sistine Chapel, in Vatican City.
Reason: The Sistine Chapel was built as a church and even though it is sometimes used as a church, it is primarily an art museum.
Standing in Church Doorway
You may stand in the doorway of a church as long as:
The doorway is at least 7 feet away from the sanctuary, and
You do not enter a sanctuary used for prayer services.
Standing in Church Shadow
You may stand in the shadow of a church.
Deriving Benefit from Church Sanctuary
You may not derive any benefit from a church sanctuary.
Buying from Church or Salvation Army
You may buy goods from a church, Salvation army, etc.
Entering a Mosque
You may enter a mosque.
Praying in a Non-Denominational Chapel
A room that is set aside for prayer by any religion, such as those at airports, may be used by Jews for prayer as long as there are no symbols of any religion inside the room, such as a cross or statues.
I am aware how corrupting it is to have everything couched in terms of Yes/No/Maybe depending on who you are speaking to.
ReplyDeleteThe Torah is obviously too harsh so its punishments are always interpreted away. Therein lies the source of Jewish moral corruption. The Koran can be interpreted literally without offending reason and humanity. Your Islamophobia, chauvinism, racism and cowardice prevents you from acknowledging this.
The Torah STATES that it is a law to live by, not to suffer or die by. It's not too far away and is supposed to be accessible. That means it needs to take account of individual circumstances which the Quran does not do.
ReplyDeleteAs an example, why is compensation meant when it says an eye for an eye - the sort of thing the Quran takes literally. What happens if a person with perfect sight who depends on vision for his livelihood damages the eye of somebody blind in one eye and almost blind in the second who depends on hearing for his work. If you followed an eye for an eye you'd have to blind the person with perfect vision. That is manifestly unjust. So it means compensation!
Now take the Quran. A man who is hungry and steals something has his hand cut off unless he is rich enough to bribe the judge. (Maybe that's not supposed to happen but it is what does happen. In Islam, the rich get away with murder e.g. Kashoggi!). But even if that wasn't the case, the penalty for theft is amputation regardless of the circumstances. That is totally unjust.
It's NOT that I'm Islamaphobic. I'm not. I'm definitely not a chauvinist or racist. BUT you are a chauvinist as you are anti-women with your BS of a matriarchy. And I'm also a realist. I have no problems with Islam or the Quran for those who want to follow it. I have big problems with those who pervert it to create Islamism - a political doctrine, or secular Koranism - a nonsense doctrine.