I tell Vincent Bruno that it doesn't matter if Chabad don't think Muslims or Secular Koranists are Noahides

https://brunosblogm.blogspot.com/2020/01/ask-noah-officially-declares-claire.html

Rabbi Schulman says "That makes the Quran and Secular Koranism not Noahide-compliant."

This is not surprising because if you are Chabad  promoting Jew-administered Noahidism for gentiles, you must already think that Islam - which is based on the Koran - is not good enough.

As I see it, Judaism and Islam are complementary in that the Torah is for Jews and the Koran for gentiles. Unlike the Torah and Koran which are believed by Jews and Muslims to be the Word of God, not even Christians are claiming that the New Testament was the Word of God. As we know, it was written by some guys called Matthew, Mark, Luke, John etc. Since Christianity is ipso facto idolatrous in the worst possible way - it is hard to think of exceeding the blasphemy of worshiping an executed revolutionary as the co-equal of the supreme and eternal Abrahamic God  - it drops out of the picture leaving Islam the only team to join if you want to worship the Abrahamic God without being guilty of idolatry.

It seem the late Rabbi Elijah Benamozegh whose idea it was in the 1860s to devise a Jew-administered religion for gentiles had some rather eccentric. His Wikipedia entry states:

"He claimed that Christianity is too monotheistic in comparison with the Kabbalah which views all pagan deities in their essence as partial manifestations or faces of the Absolute. Similarly, Benamozegh criticized the Christian view of Jesus as incarnated God on monistic or panentheistic grounds. According to Benamozegh's Kabbalistic view, the entire world is an incarnation of Shechina, the feminine aspect of Divinity. He believed that Hinduism is closer in this respect to mystical Judaism than Christianity."

His declaration of faith as an Italian Jew would doubtless be regarded as blasphemy and idolatry attracting the punishment of stoning, for it was as follows:

"O Israelites, that you will always love Italy, that you will love her with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind."

If Spinoza was so horribly cursed for confusing the Universe with God, then all the more would Rabbi Benamozegh if he had lived in the same time and place as Spinoza.

The point is that we cannot expect Chabad to be enthusiastically acknowledging Secular Koranism over their own Jew-administered Noahidism which they have been promoting since the 1860s.

The fact that Rabbi Benamozegh said idolatrous things whose punishment would attract the death penalty in a Torah theocracy would tend to discredit his idea of Jews devising a Jew-administered Noahidism for gentiles.

There are also the practicalities of selling it to gentiles. What kind of gentile would have his religion administered by Jews when he could avail himself of Islam? I think it would be a dim and Islamophobic kind of gentile tending to idolise Jews who would go for this sort of thing.

Now that I have demonstrated how easy it is for rabbis and gentiles to fall into idolatry, it is easy to justify not having a formal punishment, as the Koran does not, other than admonishing idolaters from time to time.

Finally, Jews and gentiles should not idolise their hatred and fear of Muslims and Islam to the extent of ignoring their own rules. I see no reason why Jews cannot simply promote Islam as a suitably Noahide religion other than the one of not wishing to antagonise Christian American Zionists. However, if they settled their territorial dispute with their neighbours, then all should be well again, and Jews will finally be able to speak the truth about idolatrous Christianity without fear or favour.

I am certain Israel adopting Secular Koranism (which is just another School of Sharia) would mollify Muslims everywhere and create an atmosphere of keen interest in what kind of job Jews make of interpreting and applying Secular Koranism.  Nothing in Secular Koranism (which is based on the Koran) should offend a reasonable Jew, I like to think. If only the Chabad rabbis would read it!

Rabbi Tatz does not answer my questions

Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks with Tal Keinan on the Jewish future

What an unnecessarily long-winded introduction by this woman whom I believe is not quite modestly dressed because we can see her knees. I don't think she is wearing a wig either because he hair looks natural.



Z888:
Why would you put her down?  Her skirt may be too short for your religious orthodox requirements due to her sitting down her skirt may have risen up above the knee especially when wearing leg stockings however, she did an amazing job interviewing both guests.  You should always give credit when credit is due.  For a young lady she clearly did her best to represent her community in the best light possible.  Well done.



Claire Khaw:
@Z888 "Young lady?" She is a wife and a mother and, apparently, a female Rosh Kehilla of the Downtown Minyan. Her husband is a rabbi! Why on heart is he not moderating this discussion? I am sure he wouldn't be wearing a too-short frock however pretty causing controversy with his knees and making us all scratch our heads about what on earth she meant about the Rivers Mississippi and Colorado!

https://countryeconomy.com/countries/usa-states/compare/mississippi/colorado

Mijal Bitton
https://hartman.org.il/Faculty_View.asp?faculty_id=232&Cat_Id=333&Cat_Type=about

The Downtown Minyan of which she is Rosh Kehilla is very liberal indeed, as you can tell from https://www.thedowntownminyan.com/the-team

Poor Rabbi Sacks is completely outnumbered and outgunned at this discussion: on the one hand there is this rebbetzin who doesn't see fit to mention that she is rebbetzin, on the other there is the global financier who seems to be saying that the Torah cannot quite keep up with the modern world.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tal_Keinan


14:00  God created gentiles to appreciate Judaism, says Rabbi Sacks. I think God chose Jews because He had to choose someone.  https://radicalisedrabbi.blogspot.com/2019/01/why-jews-are-gods-chosen-people-and-my.html

15:00  You can't be God's Chosen People. If gentiles all became Jewish, Jews wouldn't feel special or chosen any more. You were however created to be the light of the nations and enforce the Noahide laws on the gentiles. That much is clear. How about doing more of this sort of thing instead of being liberal and assimilated, which is not what you are supposed to do anyway since you are supposed to keep yourselves apart as your religion requires?

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-noahide-laws/

The late Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, the last leader of Chabad-Lubavitch Hasidism. Schneerson wrote:

We must do everything possible to ensure that the seven Noahide laws are observed. If this can be accomplished through force or through other kinder and more peaceful means through explaining to non-Jews that they should accept God’s wishes [we should do so]…Anyone who is able to influence a non-Jew in any way to keep the seven commandments is obligated to do so, since that is what God commanded Moses our teacher (“Sheva Mitzvot Shel Benai Noach,” Hapardes 59:9 7-11, 5745)

37:00  OMG. How short is her skirt now?

38:00  Should non-Orthodox ie non-observant Jews be considered Jews at all?

My brilliant solution to antisemitism: a Registrar and Register of Jews

http://thevoiceofreason-ann.blogspot.com/2018/11/the-pittsburgh-massacre-why-is-anti.html

43:00  Rabbi Sacks: "We may have choose our individual routes, but let's have a shared destination." Where might this shared destination be? Is Rabbi Sacks saying Jews should all go to Israel?

47:00  Is Rabbi Sacks proposing the reintroduction of Herem for unethical Jewish businessmen like what they did to Baruch Spinoza, Leon Trotsky and Grigory Zinoviev?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herem_(censure)

Alain de Botton's short video on the pantheism of Spinoza and why he was censured.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVEeXjPiw54


55:00  Secular Jews make up the numbers for the State of Israel, says Rabbi Sacks, but is that the idea? If you are meant to be a kingdom of priests, then you must be a theocracy with secular Jews not already stoned outside the city gates for breaking the Sabbath allowed only as a very insignificant and marginalised group. I imagine Tal Keinan won't like hearing this.

https://biblehub.com/exodus/19-6.htm

I hint that Jews as part of their tikkun olam should declare Secular Koranism to be more in conformity with the Noahide laws than idolatrous Christianity

1:20  I was given a YouTube strike  https://thevoiceofreason-ann.blogspot.com/2018/09/hitlers-category-mistake.html

4:00  Khabib Nurmagomedov's father says he will punish his son worse than the UFC will for post-fight melee  https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/combat-sports/107718895/khabib-nurmagomedovs-father-says-he-will-punish-his-son-worse-than-the-ufc-will-for-postfight-melee  God if He exists would disdain to take sides in sporting events.

10:00 Why are Jews the people chosen to be the light of the nations and what happens to them if they don't and the gentile stumbles and falls? They will blame Jews, of course, and use him as a scapegoat. I think they get punished along with the gentile when things go wrong, so this is what they should bear in mind when they try to assimilate and be liberal.

13:00  I was exploring selling Secular Koranism as an Orthodox Jewess in the belief that it would make it sell better and have given up the idea, for now. The UK Is really the strictest place to convert to Orthodox Judaism because the Chief Rabbinate of the British Commonwealth is there where standards are set.  If I wanted an easy conversion to Orthodox Judaism, maybe I should go to Los Angeles where Orthodox rabbis in Beverley Hills say it is kosher for Orthodox Jews in Beverley Hills to drive to shul.

Claire Khaw considers converting to Orthodox Judaism to save world Jewry from chillul Hashem

16:30  The idolatry of Christianity

17:00  Brundlefly: "Secular Koranism is separate from any kind of faith in God."

18:00  Secular Koranism is indeed about acknowledging the obvious  utilty of God's laws as as a permanent solution to the problems of human nature.

19:00  Secular Koranism is based on reason alone ie that the wisdom of God's laws are obvious and does not require its supporters to make leaps of faith, merely believe that patriarchy is the lesser evil to matriarchy and patriarchy requires the law and government to support marriage and family values.

20:00  If you believe in God, then you must obey His laws, particularly if He has taken the trouble to make them and they are contained in the Bible and Koran which are easily accessible free all over the world whose words are not in dispute.

28:00 Doooovid to Brundlefly: "What's your narrative in white advocacy? You're just a goy who married a Jewess and had a kid, got redpilled and now don't know what to do."

30:00  I say I would like to chat with David Duke and E Michael Jones with Doooovid.

34:00  Rabbi Menachem Schneerson on the Noahide laws

37:00  The problem so Jews mposing doctrinal discipline and standards of observance and behaviour on recalcitrant Jews

38:00 Hinduism

40:00 Spinoza's pantheism was declared to be heretical by Jewish authorities

41:00  Noahide Law at verses 7:20–28:

And in the twenty-eighth jubilee Noah began to enjoin upon his sons' sons the ordinances and commandments, and all the judgments that he knew, and he exhorted his sons to observe righteousness, and to cover the shame of their flesh, and to bless their Creator, and honour father and mother, and love their neighbour, and guard their souls from fornication and uncleanness and all iniquity. For owing to these three things came the flood upon the earth ... For whoso sheddeth man's blood, and whoso eateth the blood of any flesh, shall all be destroyed from the earth.

43:00 The Islamic prohibition against idolatry  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirk_(Islam)

45:00  After I am asked if I am one of the Sages by Doooovid, I ask him which of the Sages say it is OK to worship idols? I believe the Sages for the sake of expediency gave up denouncing Christianity as idolatrous because they knew - after the Crusades and the Inquisition - how nasty, violent and homicidal, mass-murdering Christians can get about such things, burning Michael Servetus at the stake for denying the Trinity. So much for Kiddush Hashem!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiddush_Hashem

47:00  A notable and forceful exception is the opinion of the late Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, the last leader of Chabad-Lubavitch Hasidism. Schneerson wrote:

We must do everything possible to ensure that the seven Noahide laws are observed. If this can be accomplished through force or through other kinder and more peaceful means through explaining to non-Jews that they should accept God’s wishes [we should do so]…Anyone who is able to influence a non-Jew in any way to keep the seven commandments is obligated to do so, since that is what God commanded Moses our teacher (“Sheva Mitzvot Shel Benai Noach,” Hapardes 59:9 7-11, 5745)

54:00  Is the Messiah supposed to come when things are good or bad?

56:00  Is Christianity or Islam more in conformity with the Noahide laws?

1:00:00  Where is there a reference to the Noahide laws?  https://www.britannica.com/topic/Noahide-Laws

Noahide Laws, also called Noachian Laws, a Jewish Talmudic designation for seven biblical laws given to Adam and to Noah before the revelation to Moses on Mt. Sinai and consequently binding on all mankind.

Beginning with Genesis 2:16, the Babylonian Talmud listed the first six commandments as prohibitions against idolatry, blasphemy, murder, adultery, and robbery and the positive command to establish courts of justice (with all that this implies). After the Flood a seventh commandment, given to Noah, forbade the eating of flesh cut from a living animal (Gen. 9:4). Though the number of laws was later increased to 30 with the addition of prohibitions against castration, sorcery, and other practices, the “seven laws,” with minor variations, retained their original status as authoritative commandments and as the source of other laws. As basic statutes safeguarding monotheism and guaranteeing proper ethical conduct in society, these laws provided a legal framework for alien residents in Jewish territory. Maimonides thus regarded anyone who observed these laws as one “assured of a portion in the world to come.” Throughout the ages scholars have viewed the Noahide Laws as a link between Judaism and Christianity, as universal norms of ethical conduct, as a basic concept in international law, or as a guarantee of fundamental human rights for all.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+9&version=NIV

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-seven-noachide-laws

In view of the strict monotheism of Islam, Muslims were considered as Noachides whereas the status of Christians was a matter of debate. Since the later Middle Ages, however, Christianity too has come to be regarded as Noachide, on the ground that Trinitarianism is not forbidden to non-Jews.

1:05:00  SHOCK HORROR: Israel has one of the highest rates of atheism in the world!

1:15:00  Jews in the diaspora support multiculturalism, Jews in Israel support the ethnostate. Which Jews are more righteous and closer to God?

              My idea of a Register and Registrar of Jews for the purpose of imposing doctrinal and behavioural discipline is considered.

1:47:00  Can someone count the number of lashon hara in the Senate Judiciary Hearings?

The Sin of Lashon Hara (evil speech) and my permanent solution to the problem of rising antisemitism: a Registrar and Register of Jews

1:50:00 Adultery still a crime in some US states
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2012/11/15/adultery-still-crime-states-including-mass/KiIPGRcFnAeT4CGmenFTKM/story.html

Human progress is often one step forwards and two steps back. For civilised life, there should be established and fair enough rules about how women and minorities are to be treated in your society.  I am suggesting that Secular Koranism would get the balance about right.