The Founding Fathers ensured that Christianity was not the official religion of America. They rejected monarchy by rejecting Christianity or rejected monarchy by rejecting Christianity. They rejected the idea of the divine right of kings and Christianity always had the purpose of supporting the divine right of kings.
Go back to your Islamic roots, Americans!
White people in Britain as well as its dominions of the British Empire in Australia, Canada and New Zealand, surely you are republicans now?
Except that there were no Islamic roots to America or the founding fathers. Of the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence, nearly half (24) held seminary or Bible school degrees.
ReplyDeleteThe founding fathers viewed Christianity as the basis for America e.g. George Washington ""While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.
Or the 2nd President: John Adams.
"The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty...
"Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."
-Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, excerpt from a letter to Thomas Jefferson.
Or Jefferson himself: "I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.
These are just 3 of many that show that the founding fathers viewed Christianity as the foundation of America. What they didn't say is that any particular Christian creed was official - so they did not specify Catholicism, Anglicanism or any other particular branch of Christianity. They also saw the damage that linking religion and State could do so they ensured the separation of both despite upholding Christianity. They rejected monarchy but that's different.
As for Jefferson's copy of the Koran the reliable site https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/why-thomas-jefferson-owned-qur-1-180967997/ explains its history. Jefferson bought this book while he was a young man studying law, and he probably read it in part to better understand Islam’s influence on some of the world’s legal systems and as part of his curiosity on religious perspectives.
Several reports have also suggested that studying the Koran was part of Jefferson’s plans for his war against pirates in North Africa. In the Jan 2, 2019 edition of the Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/01/02/complicated-history-thomas-jeffersons-koran/) it suggests that Jefferson’s 1734 translation of the Quran was not produced out of special love for Islam, but rather to further Christian missionary efforts in Muslim lands. The copy Jefferson owned was a translation by a British Lawyer, George Sale. Sale's translation includes a long introduction that explained he'd translated it to help Protestants understand the book and argue against it. "It is absolutely necessary to undeceive those who, from the ignorant or unfair translations which have appeared, have entertained too favorable an opinion of the original, and also to enable us effectually to expose the imposture"
A bit of research and you'll stop writing such rubbish and start being honest. (And I'm writing this on your blog post rather than our LinkedIn chats as you claim I'm too embarrassed to comment here. In fact I don't normally comment here to protect you so that your ignorance of religions isn't shown up publicly. However as you challenged me, I've commented. If you want more such comments I'm happy but why show yourself up. I also notice that nobody else has commented - perhaps because they also recognise the rubbish you wrote).
The most significant Islamic footprint on the American constitution is the First Amendment based on https://quran.com/2/256.
DeleteAs a Jew, you already know Judaism executes Jews who break the Sabbath and that Christians are infamous for their Christian practice of burning heretics at the stake.
Hinduism is not an organised religion and Buddhist scripture does not mention freedom of belief because Buddhists assumed its existence in the pluralistic world of paganism from whence Buddhism emerged.
Again you show total ignorance. What evidence do you have that the First Amendment is Islamic - other than wishful thinking. There is none - and as my comments show, you make things up. This is the text of the 1st Amendment as it ended up:
Delete"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances"
Islam, as practiced, denies freedom of speech and the press. In fact if you insult the Prophet you are likely to be executed for blasphemy - so where is freedom of speech or belief. In fact a precursor to the 1st Amendment was "The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretext, infringed. The people shall not be deprived or abridged of their right to speak, to write, or to publish their sentiments; and the freedom of the press, as one of the great bulwarks of liberty, shall be inviolable. The people shall not be restrained from peaceably assembling and consulting for their common good; nor from applying to the Legislature by petitions, or remonstrances, for redress of their grievances."
This clearly states that there would be no State religion - not Christianity and certainly not Islam.
Then you go on about Jews executing sabbath-breakers. You've been told MULTIPLE times but choose to ignore this, that Judaism is against the death penalty. It's on the statute books as a warning of how severe the crime is but to actually put it in practice is so constrained as to be nearly impossible. If somebody was sentenced to death it was because that person was looking for a legal way of committing suicide where they'd die by another person's hand.
As for Hinduism not being organised - it's as organised / disorganised as most religions including Islam.
You protest and write BS - continuously. Instead of writing such rubbish do some research and listen to those who know. (You've been told multiple times about the Jewish view to the death penalty - not just by me. You choose to ignore it because it suits your malevolent purposes to claim things that are not true).
There is a White House Koran, and it belonged to Thomas Jefferson who drafted the Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom, which subsequently became the First Amendment.
DeleteAs for the 36 capital offences of Judaism, you know they include idolatry, blasphemy, sabbath breaking as well as inciting a community to practise idolatry.
Unless Israel is a Torah theocracy, none of these capital offences can be enforced.
It is no surprise therefore that no Israeli Jew wants a Torah theocracy and even rabbis baulk at the idea of rule by rabbi. Imagine how rival rabbis would eliminate the competition by accusing each other of one of the 36 capital offences!
Perhaps someone will make a sitcom of this scenario or a movie of such a dystopian theocracy.
It would appear that Tel Aviv as a city would be collectively guilty of ir nidachat and require other Israelis to mete out the terrible punishment for being a citizen of a city that has gone astray.
You know as well as I do that the only viable theocracy in Israel would have to be a sharia theocracy interpreted by Jews.
Did you read my first comment. Clearly you didn't. The White House Koran that belonged to Jefferson was not used for the 1st Amendment. It's not known if Jefferson ever read his copy but it was translated by George Sale with the aim of refuting Islam and using it to convert Muslims to Christianity. So to claim that Jefferson based the 1st Amendment or anything on it is more than just wishful thinking.
DeleteAs for the capital offences in Judaism - the Jewish law codes clearly state that any court that sentences anybody to death is viewed as bloody court and Rabbi Akiva stated that he'd never allow ANYBODY to be sentenced to death. So even if Israel was a Torah theocracy not one of the capital offences would be imposed. In reality, the conditions to impose them are so strict that they couldn't be meted out in practice. (You need two witnesses to the crime who warn the person BEFORE he commits the crime that if he does, it's a capital offence and the person is in right mind (i.e. not mentally unbalanced in anyway) and says "I don't care - I'm going to do it anyway" and then the witnesses see the person committing the crime after their warning. Plus the witnesses need to be totally independent. If they've ever met before they are invalidated because of the risk of collusion. Judaism is NOT like Islam that mains and kills people on a whim. It is a legal system that respects human rights.
As for Tel Aviv - it's becoming quite religious! It certainly would not be an Ir Nidachat. There is no idolatry there - or if there are pockets, it's a real minority. Again - you choose your own definitions and get them completely wrong.
Why don't you focus on something you know about rather than constantly showing your ignorance.
Once can be forgiven as a mistake.
Twice can be forgiven for a misunderstanding
Three times just shows stupidity. You refuse to learn - and keep making the same mistakes many more times than three times indicating not just stupidity but total blindness to reality.
What makes you think Jefferson never read the Koran when the fact that he read it to better negotiate with the Barbary pirates is well-documented?
ReplyDeleteAs for the 36 capital offences of Judaism, I am also making the point that even if someone were in fact guilty of them, it would still be perceived as being far too harsh.
That is why the Koran is superior because it hardly mentions capital punishments but supports them in principle when the interests of justice require it.
I think you must be ir nidachat if you live in a city with just one church or are a British Jew living in a cathedral city.
The only way to escape the punishment of beheading in the afterlife - the assumption is that if you are not punished for it within your Jewish lifetime, you will be punished for it in your olam haba - is to convert to Islam.
Now you are opening out on your true views as an Islamic missionary.
DeleteWith regards to Jefferson - as usual you didn't read what I wrote. I didn't say that Jefferson had never read the Koran. I said "It's not known if Jefferson ever read his copy". NOT KNOWN ≠ NEVER.
Islamic countries use capital punishment indiscriminately - even for actions that would not be offences in Judaism e.g. the demonstrators in Iran are being sentenced to death for waging war against God / Allah when in fact they are protesting against the restrictions of your human rights. When you don't legislate for something - as you clam the Koran doesn't then people add in things. Which means that the gaps in the Koran lead to inhumanity and so you cannot say it is superior.
As for living in a city with a church - as usual you define things from your own, fundamentalist and false perspective. Christianity is neither blasphemy nor idolatry unless you redefine what these words mean. It's why, according to Islam, Christians are peoples of the book and protected.
As for beheading in the afterlife - again you speak nonsense. How can you behead a soul?
For God, if He exists, all things are possible, especially with regard to punishing souls in the afterlife. The point to remember is that Jews will be punished more harshly than gentiles because they are supposed to be setting and upholding standards. Therefore when they fail to set and uphold standards, things fall apart for which they will be punished, having accepted the role and the obligations of being God's Chosen People.
DeleteCAROL: Quran 2/256 matches the first amendment. Jefferson had read the Quran and it’s clear that even if he was not Muslim his thinking was progressing that way even if he didn’t realize it. He already rejected the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus.
ReplyDeleteJefferson rejected the Trinity and divinity of Jesus - but he was pretty much alone among the US's founding fathers. Jefferson repeatedly expressed his admiration for Jesus as a moral teacher, and consistently referred to himself as a Christian (though following his own unique type of Christianity) throughout his life. In his letter to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse written on January 8, 1825, Jefferson described himself as a unitarian.
DeleteNOWHERE does he discuss Islamic beliefs or how they influenced him. When somebody writes about his views on Jesus and religion in general but fails to write about / praise Islam the logical conclusion is that he saw Christianity (albeit a non-traditional sort) as relevant to his life while Islam was on a par with other non-Christian religions. It's even on his gravestone - and Jefferson said Thomas Jefferson said that his Virginia Act for Establishing Religious Freedom was “meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew, the Gentile, the Christian and the Mahometan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.”
In other words, if you were Hindu then you could argue just as much that Jefferson was influenced by Hinduism. If you were a pagan you could say Jefferson was a pagan. Both of these would be as true as saying he was moving towards Islam.
It's easy to read into things what you want - but that doesn't make them true. You need to check the whole context!
CAROL : a Unitarian is a hop and a skip from being a Muslim. Jefferson was a thinker. He had other books about Muslims in his library, including legal stuff. His Quran burned in a fire and he replaced it. It’s odd to me to think he collected books and did not read them. An argument that he got the idea from the Quran , or by Islam through some Islamic ideas being adopted already in religious debate tracks makes more sense than saying he was not influenced by the thoughts and debates of his time.
DeleteJefferson's library was massive. He had around 6500 books which Congress purchased in 1815. After the purchase, the Library of Congress had more than 2x as many books as they'd had a few years earlier during the British attacks. Anybody who knows anything about large libraries is that there are there for reference and that not all books will be read. A good library is filled with mostly unread books. That’s the point. (See: https://fs.blog/the-antilibrary/). If you think that every or even most books will have been read then you are showing how limited your thoughts are.
DeleteAnd to say that a Unitarian is almost a Muslim is a joke. In fact, I could argue that Jefferson was much closer to Judaism than Islam - as by denying the divinity of Jesus he was in the same position as most secular Jews. He NEVER accepted the shahada or that Mohammed was a prophet.
As for owning a copy of the Quran - I do too. Does that make me a Muslim. I also own the New Testament (a couple of editions) but I'm not Christian. One of my favourite non-Jewish texts is the Tao De Ching - I have two different editions and although I find parts VERY Jewish I'd never claim the two religions are the same and I'm far from being a Daoist. I also have works by Rev Moon and some Hindu texts. So your reading into Jefferson's ownership of a copy of the Quran that was translated for missionary purposes as making him influenced by Islam is whimsical if not laughable.
And there are lots of Jewish ideas in Islam - but does that make Muslims Jewish. Of course it doesn't - because they have ideas that are antithetical to Judaism - in the same way Jefferson did for Islam!
Jefferson was known for having read the Koran in order to better negotiate with the Barbary pirates. The First Amendment is also supported by 2:256 of the Koran. Since the Koran is known to be for all of humanity, then the fact that Jefferson would have to convert to Judaism - which is a long and arduous process - would make him further from Judaism than Islam, which only requires reciting the shahada.
DeleteJefferson can be assumed to be Noahide and Islam, being the religion closest to Judaism, is therefore a Noahide religion.
CAROL: quote “Islam, as practiced, denies freedom of speech and the press. In fact if you…”. The idea is Jefferson was influenced by the Quran text itself. Not by how Muslims necessarily interpreted the text in practice.
ReplyDeleteMuslims interpret the text based on the teachings of Mohammed. If you are saying that the text doesn't reflect what Mohammed wanted then I'd suggest he was more likely influenced by an earlier text i.e. the Torah (which is closer to unitarianism than Islam and which accepts the Torah as divine scripture unlike the Quran).
Delete