7:18 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
Can anyone define righteous?
7:19 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
Cherki doesn't speak English.
7:19 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
Hazony is an American stooge.
7:21 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
Righteous Jews and righteous gentiles would care about the stench of Christian idolatry.
7:22 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
Jews and gentiles who keep sweeping the idolatry of Christianity and ignoring its stench would not be considered righteous.
7:23 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
Reform Jews are heretical Jews. That is not made clear enough even to Jews.
7:24 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
Even the most moronic Christian can understand that it is idolatry to worship a man. The problem is that Jews and Muslims have not dared to RAM HOME THAT POINT.
7:26 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
There is no need to have these tedious readings. You just have to ask each other whether Jews and Muslims have a duty to tell idolaters that it is idolatry to worship a man.
7:30 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
Tovia Singer talked about the "stench of Christianity" in his video on Maimonides yesterday at 12:00. Viva Tovia!
7:31 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
Do the curses for disobedience in Deuteronomy 28 also apply to gentiles who worship Jesus as the co-equal of God who created the universe?
7:32 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
Israeli soldiers mocking a statue of Mary is neither here nor there. What is required is a formal letter to the Pope, Archbishop of Canterbury or King Charles asking how Christianity is not idolatry
7:34 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
Only Jews and gentiles who care to discuss the Noahide laws could be called righteous. The first and second Noahide laws echo the first and second Commandments.
7:35 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
To be righteous is to be principled. To be principled is to care about the principle of obeying the supreme and eternal Abrahamic God who forbade idolatry and blasphemy.
7:36 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
It is the easiest thing to accuse Christians of hypocrisy when they refuse to discuss the Trinity. I suspect PVK is an atheist, just like Jordan Peterson. Did you hear him talk about God No 1 and 2??
7:38 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
Christianity in America is just a business model. Where did I get that idea? PVK. He actually said that himself. Jesus is just a brand snake oil salesmen use to sell their snake oil.
7:38 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
Israel being a secular state is just an American colony. Hashem would hardly approve of liberal democracy, would He?
7:39 PM
@almondtree
#3
Was Solomon zedek?
7:39 PM
@almondtree
#3
King of righteousness, king of peace
7:39 PM
@almondtree
#3
King of Jerusalem
7:39 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
Solomon died an idolater.
7:40 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
1 Kings 11:4 states that as Solomon grew old, his foreign wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the Lord.
7:41 PM
@almondtree
#3
Wait what? Is this in the Koran?
7:41 PM
@almondtree
#3
Oh yeah but I dunno if he died that way he may have repented from his pimp lifestyle
7:42 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
Unlike in the Bible, according to Muslim tradition Solomon never participated in idolatry.
7:43 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
It is interesting that Jews reject the Koran's sanitised version of their prophets and so do Christians.
7:44 PM
@almondtree
#3
That is strange. Do you think Islam emphasizes righteousness more than Judaism and Christianity?
7:44 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
Jews and Christians are more interested in remaining Jews and Christians even if it means risking their olam haba, suggesting that they do not really believe in the afterlife.
7:45 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
If Jews and Christians really believed in the afterlife, they would be more anxious to be in good standing with God in the afterlife than hanging out with other Hell-bound people in their lifetimes.
7:46 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
@almondtree What is strange?
7:46 PM
@almondtree
#3
I mean interesting, not strange
7:47 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
@almondtree By righteousness, I just mean following the principles one claims to have.
7:47 PM
@almondtree
#3
That’s why I hang with you Claire
7:48 PM
@almondtree
#3
Hellbound Christian hanging with a secular Koranist 😉
7:48 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
The point I am making is that it is easier to get to heaven using the Koran than the Bible. The Koran actually describes Heaven while the Bible is silent.
7:49 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
@almondtree All the Abrahamic faiths say redemption is possible in this life.
7:49 PM
@almondtree
#3
I need to read the Koran at some point. It would probably be very good for me
7:49 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
@almondtree Thank you for hanging with me!
7:50 PM
@almondtree
#3
Don’t care about us Chezi. Unless you gonna mention Melchizedek.
7:50 PM
@almondtree
#3
I mean. Care about Claire’s comments, not mine
7:50 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
There is no mention of the afterlife in the Torah, is there?
7:51 PM
@almondtree
#3
Just Sheol, as far as I know.
7:55 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
@almondtree That's not enough to punish evil and reward good measure for measure, is it? The Koran has the most morally satisfying narrative, but what would Islamophobes care about their afterlife?
7:55 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
Sheol is the underworld place of stillness and darkness which is death. That would be annihilationism. Not that scary, is it?
7:56 PM
@almondtree
#3
Yes I am the ghost that summons Jess
7:56 PM
@almondtree
#3
I present him with offerings of onions
7:57 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
According to the 11th Principle of Judaism, God rewards the righteous and punishes the wicked, measure for measure.
7:58 PM
@almondtree
#3
Yeah I don’t know if Sheol has a punishment for evil. There are passages that suggest it does. Like Isaiah 14 and some places in Ezekiel
7:58 PM
@almondtree
#3
But Ecclesiastes seems to suggest that the same thing happens to the evil and the good
7:59 PM
@sunrhyze
#1
@OfficialSecularKoranism my question would be what does measure for measure mean? In Judaism, an eye for an eye doesn't mean you literally remove the offender's eye
8:00 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
The Quran describes Heaven (Jannah) as an eternal garden of bliss for believers and righteous individuals, featuring rivers, lush vegetation, and spiritual closeness to God.
8:00 PM
@almondtree
#3
But who can really prove any of it? Does the Koran prove an afterlife? Or do we just read it and take it on faith?
8:00 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
Hell (Jahannam) is depicted as a place of torment for wrongdoers and disbelievers.
8:00 PM
@almondtree
#3
Yeah there is a Tophet mentioned in Isaiah that sounds like torment
8:00 PM
@almondtree
#3
Or suggests
8:00 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
@sunrhyze The eye for an eye principle is just an argument for proportionality.
8:01 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
@almondtree If you don't believe in the afterlife where good will be rewarded and evil punished, then you might as well be atheist.
8:02 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
We are all supposed to have an immortal soul whether we want it or not.
8:03 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
I think Chezi should deal with the points raised in the chat.
8:04 PM
@sunrhyze
#1
Someone said we're souls who have bodies, not bodies who have souls. Maybe it was Chezi
8:06 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
@sunrhyze Our immortal soul - if that is indeed what we have - has the purpose of conveying us to our afterlife. Think of it as a conveyance.
8:07 PM
@almondtree
#3
I don’t know if I can convey my thoughts in this chat correctly. But I don’t know what suggest an afterlife or where this idea first came about. Is it through things like future and memory?
8:08 PM
@almondtree
#3
Like do our” souls” project us into a future we can imagine, or recall things that have passed on to our present self?
8:08 PM
@almondtree
#3
I don't know if that makes sense.
8:10 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
@almondtree If all good will be rewarded and all evil punished, two categories of existence have to be created so that good can be rewarded and evil punished in the afterlife.
8:11 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
@almondtree All that we need to understand is that good will be rewarded and evil punished, measure for measure, if the Abrahamic God exists. Heaven is the best place imaginable, hell the worst.
8:12 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
@almondtree What doesn't make sense?
8:13 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
The Talmud is just the speculation and imaginings of rabbis over the centuries, not the Word of God or His promises.
8:13 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
Annihiliationism just means that when you're dead you're dead.
8:14 PM
@almondtree
#3
Yeah, that makes sense. But what if you’re somewhat of an agnostic, and you claim that you don’t really know. Do you just take this idea of rewards on faith?
8:15 PM
@almondtree
#3
Like, I just don’t know why, ultimately, I would know that I know and afterlife is real, and good and evil would be rewarded, other than the fact that my parents told me. Or the Bible told me.
8:15 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
@almondtree The purpose of these categories is to create places where good will be rewarded and evil punished.
8:15 PM
@almondtree
#3
Which is good enough. But I don’t know where their father‘s father’s got that idea from From. Because who’s really gone to see the afterlife and come back?
8:16 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
@almondtree That is where faith comes in. The idea that good will be rewarded and evil punished in this life and the next by a benign deity is to encourage us to do the right thing.
8:16 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
@almondtree Don't we all want good to be rewarded and evil punished?
8:16 PM
@almondtree
#3
I see the utility and having these categories, Claire. maybe that’s good enough. Or maybe the utilities of those categories suggest the absolute truth and reality of them.
8:17 PM
@almondtree
#3
Yes
8:17 PM
@almondtree
#3
We do
8:17 PM
@almondtree
#3
Unless we’re truly evil. Then maybe we don’t.
8:18 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
@almondtree Either the Abrahamic God actually exists, or He was created by Man to satisfy our desire for good to be rewarded and evil punished in this life and the next.
8:18 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
@almondtree People basically believe what they want to believe,, or what they have been taught to believe.
8:20 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#2
@almondtree Ecclesiastes was supposed to have been written by Solomon who died an idolater. He may have been wise, but not all-wise.
8:20 PM
@almondtree
#3
Yeah, I think he says as much in my favorite verse in the Bible. I think it’s chapter 7 verse 27.
8:21 PM
@almondtree
#3
“ all this, I have proved by wisdom. I said I will be wise, but it was far from me.”
8:25 PM
@almondtree
#3
Chezi, I think a lot of my comments had to do with suggesting there was no Torah or scripture or anything. Why would I believe in the afterlife?
8:26 PM
@almondtree
#3
Like what would compel me to have that idea? And I think Claire suggested that the utility of a judgment rewarding, good, and evil is a good thing.
8:27 PM
@almondtree
#3
And because we know that such an idea is a good thing, because if it’s practicality, therefore it must suggest that it’s true, or I should at least submit myself to it on faith
8:29 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#1
@almondtree If the Abrahamic God exists, He would reward good and punish evil, measure for measure, in this life and the next. Most people would want to believe in this, if it is true, or not.
8:31 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
#1
It actually doesn't matter if God exists or not. If He exists, then of course we should obey His laws. But even if He does not, it is obviously useful to society that we obey His laws.
8:33 PM
@OfficialSecularKoranism
If there were a general belief in God, and most parents were married parents who want to properly parent their legitimate offspring, we would live in a high trust and low tax society.
8:35 PM
@almondtree
#3
why did Musicdude time out Claire?
8:36 PM
@almondtree
#1
I mustve missed something
8:36 PM
@almondtree
#1
I feel like Musicdude does this a lot
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