Claire Khaw
A Trinitarian is someone who believes that Jesus is the co-equal of God, which is idolatry and blasphemy.
Christian
This is if the trinitarian doctrine suggests there is more than one God, which is not the claim being made. A Biblical understanding of God is that He has revealed Himself as the Father as the Son and as the Holy Spirit. There are examples in both the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament that witness to this reality. As an agnostic I am curious how you come to the conclusion that this is idolatry and blasphemy.
Claire Khaw
An agnostic does not have to be ignorant of theology. Since I know what idolatry is, I can recognise it when I see it.
Christian
Certainly a person can be an agnostic and yet study theology. How do you define idolatry? What about Jesus being divine is idolatrous? If God exists, is He incapable of revealing Himself in human form? In other words, is God limited?
Claire Khaw
Jews first defined idolatry as the worship of anything that isn't God and the assumption that God created the Universe. Idolatry is also confusing God and His Creation and worshiping His Creation instead of Him. Man is obviously part of God's Creation. If idolatry is a concept original to Judaism, when did Christianity acquire the right to redefine idolatry? If Jesus became merged with God, when did this happen and how and what is the scriptural authority for this?
All idolatry is blasphemy and idolatry is the worship of anything that isn't God. Confusing God and His Creation would lead to idolatry if God's Creation is worshiped instead of God Himself. God has already been defined in the third principle of the 13 Principles of Judaism which states that God can never take physical or material form. Christians predictably wish to believe otherwise, but there is no scriptural authority for this belief.
Christian
Christianity has not redefined idolatry. The New Testament scriptures are in agreement with the Hebrew scriptures. You ask for scriptural authority on the matter that Jesus is God. In Genesis 1:1 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis%201:1&version=NIV we read that God (Elohim which is a plural form of Eloah) signifying majesty and complex unity of God. He spoke the Word and created everything out of nothing and His Spirit hovered over the deep. In John 1:1 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1%3A1&version=NIV the Word was with God and the Word was God, this same Word that was spoken was apart of God that created everything. In Genesis 3:8 we read that God walked in the garden, He was present with His creation while still being God not bound by space and time and matter yet can be with His children. In Genesis 18 God shows up at Abraham's tent to eat and speak with Him about Sarah bearing a child and about the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah. In Exodus, God manifests His presence in the burning bush before Moses chp 3, as well as in the pillar of cloud by day and fire by night chp 13:21 Deuteronomy 31:15 and with in the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle (God later manifests Him in a "tabernacle' of flesh in Jesus).
Claire Khaw
Christians worship a man as God, according to the Doctrine of the Trinty. Confusing God and His Creation puts you in danger of idolatry. Christians literally are supposed to believe that a crucified Jew is the co-equal of the supreme and eternal Abrahamic God who created the Universe and worship him as such. Once upon a time, a monarch who accepted the corrupt bargain of Rome would forcibly convert his subjects and then burn heretics at the stake for questioning this absurdity. When Western governments lost the will to do this sort of thing, they threw out the baby that was the morality of Christianity with the bathwater of the Trinity. And this is where we are now. You will be relieved to know that there is a religion for gentiles enabling them to worship the Abrahamic God without committing the mortal sins of idolatry and blasphemy.
Christian
God also manifests Himself before Moses and Moses spoke with Him Exodus 33 (note God shows up but limits the amount of His glory He manifests before Moses and even His people unless they die). In Dueteronomy 6:4 the Shema states "Shema Yisrael Yahweh Eloheinu, Yahweh echad. Why echad and not yachid or bad? Echad means one but it also means a unity like in Genesis 2 the man and wife become one (echad) not yachid which leterally means one and only one. This seems to suggest that God is complex in His unity for the Word was eternally with God and the same for the Spirit for they are all of the same essence. The scriptures states that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and yet Jesus is describe as one who never sinned. And if God at times can manifest His glory and be present with His creation He can also take on flesh and dwell among us (Immanuel) Isaiah 9:6 or 9:5. This is not an exhaustive presentation of scripture evidence that God can dwell among His people and manifest Himself as a man.
We do not worship a created being but God who over 2,000 years ago came to earth humbled in a fleshly body to take on Himself the sin of us all because He loves us so much and it is impossible to earn favor in God's sight so He paid the price for our sins so that if we believe He came, died and rose again and put our trust in Him we shall have forgiveness of sins and have eternal life. Islam is works based and so is Judaism. Who are we to think we can do enough good to earn God's favor? God made a way through Jesus and so by His help we can overcome our ways and become more like Him.
We do not worship a man. You assume Jesus was created. As an agnostic it seems rather confusing why you would even care one way or another when your position is you are not convinced God exists in the first place. I get it you can look at other worldviews (just as I can) and learn their position on the matter but this seems irrelevant to your worldviews foundational claim. As an agnostic, by what authority are you able to judge between faiths you deem untrue on the the most fundamental claims?
I would like to understand your position.
This is a gross misunderstanding of the trinity but if you come to the table assuming God does not exist then the understanding of the complex unity of God will be hard to grasp. It can be equally blasphemous to dethrone God to claim what is God is not God. (Jesus called out the Jewish leaders for claiming His miracles came from the devil when they were from God). I appreciate you being honest with me about your understanding of the Bible and the Abrahamic faiths but I would caution on over simplifying history and religions and Christianity. You bring up rejections that have been dealt with before. I encourage you to find out for sure whether God exists or not. I believe if you seek Him with all your heart (harden not your heart to the evidence) you will find Him. Also take time to consider the claims of the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament. The scriptures speak of a falling away from God. Just because someone claims to be Christian doesn't mean that they are. And God doesn't force anyone to serve Him so individuals and societies can rebel and reap the consequences thereof.
Claire Khaw
The more absurd the claim, the more it should be questioned, particularly if it already offends against the Ten Commandments and the Seven Noahide laws. I think any concerned citizen is entitled to question the operating moral system when it is clearly failing and a better one is available.
Christian
You raise some important issues and I appreciate you being upfront and honest about your position. I can tell you have passion and I can appreciate that. Please understand that I might not always be able to respond or at least respond right away due to other obligations I have.
I know you expressed you are an agnostic but I would like to know how you came to that conclusion. You can direct message me if you'd like. What are your thoughts on God's existence?
Claire Khaw
I am agnostic but it really bothers me that those who claim to believe in the Abrahamic God are so indifferent to accusations of idolatry and blasphemy. If Christians believe in the Abrahamic God, shouldn't they be afraid of punishment for doing what God has explicitly forbidden? I am more concerned that Christians have been atheists all along! If they are not afraid of divine punishment for idolatry and blasphemy, then they must think they won't be punished by a deity that doesn't exist. Have Christians been such hypocrites that they were only pretending to believe, but were really atheists all along? This is what I really cannot get over. It is not like they have a convincing argument that answers any questions.
Christian
What informs your worldview? Why do you hold to agnosticism? It would be interesting to know your perspective. What proof text do you use to argue against John 1:1 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1%3A1&version=NIV, Isaiah 9:6 or 9:5, against Hebrews 7 referring to Melchizedek (referencing Abraham's meeting with Him in Genesis) (Jesus being a Melchizedek priest) having no father nor mother nor beginning nor end) and the other texts I've presented? If God exists and can create everything out of nothing, raise the dead, part the Red Sea, show up to Abraham at His tent in person, reveal Himself to Moses, including the Son of Man (a divine title) standing in the fire with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego (known as Theophanies) why can't He come to Earth in a flesh body? There is plenty of other Old Testament and New Testament examples to back the claim that Jesus is Messiah and even God incarnate. If He is God incarnate then this is no violation of the ten commandments.
How do you explain Christians (even the disciples) through out the centuries being severely persecuted including: imprisonment, torture and murder for the sake of the Gospel that is supposedly a lie? Not to mention, Jesus' disciples who originally doubted who Jesus was and doubted the women who claimed that He rose from the dead and who were in hiding for fear of the Jewish leadership during and after His trial and crucifixion would willfully be tortured, prisoned, criticized and murdered all for a claiming who He is and that He rose from the dead? How do you explain Paul who put Jesus' followers to death becoming a radical follower of Jesus even to His own persecution and murder? Something had to have happen to make so many people willing to declare this Gospel at all cost.
Claire Khaw
I hold on to healthy skepticism while being mindful of the principles of the moral system concerned. The Ten Commandments are in the Torah believed by Jews to come from the supreme and eternal Abrahamic God who created the Universe. What is not in the Torah was written by mortal and fallible men. The verses you cited were written by mortal and fallible men who cannot possibly be sufficient authority to cancel the prohibition against idolatry and blasphemy.
Christian
So the passages I referenced from the Torah do not count for example (Abraham meeting with Yahweh near his tent (when the three "men" show up)? So observant Jews don't believe that the prophets spoke God's words (Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Micah etc)? If Jesus existed from the beginning as the Scriptures state then by definition He was not created and therefore worshipping Him does not violate the Torah because He and the Father are one (echad). Jeremiah prophecies about God establishing the New Covenant many passages in the Jewish Bible prophecy about Jesus. Jewish Scriptures which Christians have in there Bibles as well agree with the New Testament and the New Testament confirms the Jewish Scriptures. They are not at odds. Why do you say the New Testament is from man? Interestingly, even the Quran mentions the Torah and Gospels were from God (though I don't prescribe to Islam).
Claire Khaw
As an agnostic, I must logically and necessarily be skeptical about narratives.
The Muslim view is that Jewish and Christian scripture have been corrupted.
I think the Koran should be preferred simply because it has laws that do not involve stoning anyone to death at the drop of a hat that is a universal moral minimum.
Christian
I can appreciate the skepticism as I think it is healthy to ask good questions and check things out before accepting a position, especially as you say if it is a difficult narrative to follow. Jesus in Luke 14 instructs His disciples to count the cost of following Him. It is a major investment not to take lightly and know for sure. I know there is more we can discuss about this topic. I appreciate your willingness to have this dialogue with me.
The comment about Muslims view about scripture is something I am aware of (interestingly it claims they are from God yet corrupt, is Allah not able to preserve his own words?) That would also be an interesting discussion in of itself along with the existence of God the historical Jesus the reliability of the Gospels versus that of the Koran the history of the faiths and the moral systems. I do appreciate that you recognize an issue that is even raised in the scriptures about the hyper feminist movement which is not much different from that of Jezebel.
May I share some resources with you in case you have time to check them out?
Claire Khaw
If the Torah has a few mistakes here and there, this must be blamed on the scribes rather than God. It is not so much the disputed narratives that matter so much as the divine laws humanity are supposed to follow that is at issue. Jews have nothing to tell gentiles about living in a theocracy since they haven't lived in their own theocracy for 2000 years. Judaism and Islam are agreed that Christianity is idolatry and blasphemy. Indeed, the Christian narrative is that Jesus was convicted and crucified for blasphemy and it has been Christian practice to worship a man crucified for blasphemy for 2000 years. By all means share your resources with me.
Christian
I would agree with you that the Torah is God's Word, I am just making the point that even the Koran recognizes the Torah and the Gospels are from God. The question remains does the Torah, which I read and believe in, say that God can't dwell among His people? Is it possible that the Quran got it wrong on Jesus? Is it possible that Judaism has missed her Messiah? I gave several examples in the Torah and prophets that point to God dwelling among His people and prophecy in Isaiah 9 that speaks of a child being born that will be called Almighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace, Wonderful Counselor.
With God all things are possible. We are not talking about another God but the God that loves HIs people so much that He took on a humble body and dwelt among us and take on the wrath due to us all for sin. I gave a case for God becoming man from the Torah and prophets so if you are going to claim in blasphemy you will have to deal with these textual references. Also deal with the existence of God and why you prefer rabbinical Judaism's interpretation of the Scriptures and Islam's position of the scriptures over a sola scriptura approach. Remember many religious Jews read the scriptures through the lens of Jewish tradition (Talmud, Mishnah, Rabbis) and in the yearly Torah readings they skip Isaiah 53. Why? Resources coming soon.
Also as an agnostic you worry about blasphemy but you reject foundation of the Ten Commandments and Torah, that God is. You can't claim blasphemy when you reject God all together. Psalm 14:1 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+14%3A1&version=NIV, Psalm 53:1 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+53%3A1&version=NIV, Proverbs 9:10 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+9%3A10&version=NIV
Claire Khaw
What makes you think I have rejected God altogether?
Christian
I have asked you what you think about the existence of God and your answer has been that you are an agnostic. What do you mean by agnostic regarding God's existence?
Forgive me if I have misunderstood.
Claire Khaw
Someone agnostic would make a point of never arguing for or against the existence of God. I am only choosing the Koran for reasons of humanity and practicality. The Torah has 36 capital offences and the Koran has significantly fewer. As for the narratives, who can possibly know which is true if they are in conflict? What we know is that the Abrahamic God most explicitly and specifically forbade idolatry and Moses executed those that worshiped the Golden Calf.
Using the Noahide laws as a 7* rating system would make Islam as the most Noahide gentile religion and Christianity the least.
Christian
Thanks for providing an explanation of your views. I am aware that agnostics take a uncertain approach on various topics. Which side of the spectrum of belief and unbelief do you find your self on? Do you see how not taking a firm stand on God's existence is problematic if one takes a firm stand on blasphemy? If God does not exists or we don't take a firm stand on that then how can we take a firm stand on the latter? It is just as sinful to not believe in God as it is to worship something or someone other than God. Both are foundational principles through out the Scriptures both OT and NT. If He doesn't exists then on what do we anchor morality? Blasphemy is irrelevant with out God in the first place. Jesus points to Moses and the Torah and prophets and writings in His teachings, so He affirmed the commandments that there is only one God and to worship Him alone and brought us back to the heart issue not just the letter which God wants to deal with in all of us. Objective morality hinges on the notion that God exists. Thanks for the link.
Claire Khaw
I am just making the point that if you did believe in God then you would have the beginning of wisdom that is fear of the Lord. What I have noticed with Christians is that they really don't care at all that they could be guilty of idolatry and blasphemy and just say "Prove it that we are guilty of blasphemy" and reverse the burden of proof on to the non-Christian.
It is incumbent on the claimant to make out his claim and the Christian reversing the burden of proof on the skeptic is evidence he is not arguing in good faith.
If God forbids idolatry and blasphemy, it can be deduced that He disapproves of it and will punish it. Were God to change His mind on the matter, He would make clear He has done so, but not through vague ambiguous verses in the Tanakh or the New Testament which cannot be in any way regarded as authoritative since they were written by men.
All idolatry is blasphemy, if what is blasphemy is anything offensive to God if He exists. If God has forbidden idolatry, it would be offensive to Him that Christendom has for 2000 years been worshiping a man crucified for blaspheming against Him.
Those who had a duty to discourage this but failed to do so - Jews and Muslims - would be punished too.
Our reason and humanity would make us acknowledge the universal application of the Noahide laws. Anyone who rejects the Noahide laws because they are Jewish and from the Talmud would have revealed their antisemitism.
Ranking the four gentile religions according to the Noahide laws would make Islam the most Noahide and Christianity the least because of its idolatry and blasphemy. It is not inadvertent idolatry and blasphemy by people who didn't know any better, but seems focused and deliberate. Already knowing of the prohibition against idolatry, Paul the heretical Jew decided that gentiles without the ideological barrier of Judaism against idolatry would be easier pickings than Jews already religiously inoculated against idolatry.
Christian
You repeat the mantra of blasphemy but do not believe the Bible as God's Word and have not refuted the scriptures in the Bible that back up the Christian claim and you claim it calls Christian's idolaters even though you believe it is man made. Interestingly this "man made text" has been backed up by history, archaeology, thousands of ancient manuscripts, scientific discoveries, testimonies, survived many attempts to destroy it or suppress it, genocides and other persecutions (in Rome, atheists countries, Muslim countries, supposed Christian countries (the Bible warns of false sheep and shepherds), pagan countries etc), surviving hostility for thousands of years and critics and the most attempts to disprove the texts more than any other text or faith. Notice no other ancient texts goes under so much scrutiny than the Bible. There seems to be a double standard in skeptic circles on critiquing the Bible versus other texts. If Satan exists, wouldn't you think he would go after the truth? In the garden the serpent said to Eve, "did God really say...?" This has been a common line used against the Bible "God didn't really say," "that is just your interpretation,"..... I find this to be an interesting phenomenon.
Claire Khaw
The Koran has an alternative narrative saying Jesus only appeared to die on the cross which would be a happier outcome for gentiles who love Jesus but don't want to be guilty of idolatry and blasphemy of worshiping him. Jews would also be let off the hook for being Christ killers if they adopted this narrative. Presumably it is the Islamophobia that keeps Jews and gentiles from using the laws and narrative of the Koran as well as its more humane laws that do not include 36 capital offences.
Christian
The question is, is the Koran correct about Jesus' death? A book written hundreds of years (between 500 and 600 years) after the events happened in comparison to books written with in the generation that witnessed the crucifixion who could have easily discredited those claims. Both believers and unbelievers- Christian and non Christian sources-point to this historical fact. Scholars agree that this was an historical event. Even early sources acknowledge that people saw Jesus as a miracle worker even if they did not accept Him. Hundreds of people witnessed to seeing Him alive after He died days before.
Yes sadly those professing to follow Christ persecuted the Jews as Christ killers (Dr. Michael Brown and others address this in writing, his book is called "Our Hands Our Stained with Blood") https://askdrbrown.org/library/our-hands-are-stained-blood-tragic-story-church-and-jewish-people. This is abhorrent and no true follower of Christ would make such a claim nor hate on the Jewish people. This would be in violation of Jesus' teachings and the teachings of the Apostles.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Corrie Ten Boom are prime examples of those fighting against an evil regime that hated the Jews. Corrie housed Jews protecting them for the Nazi's risking her and her family's life to protect them.
Claire Khaw
Scriptural authority matters and God's word in the Torah and Koran can't be changed by mortal and fallible men, can it?
Christian
I don't believe the Koran is Scripture. Torah yes but Koran no.
Claire Khaw
Why not? If you believe the Koran is God's word, you wouldn't be doubting its accuracy. You would have thought that Jews and Christians would prefer its less harsh laws and narrative, but it seems Christians prefer Jesus to have died on the cross suffering terribly and Jews prefer to be known as Christ killers. I can only attribute this attitude to Islamophobia.
Christian
Here are some reasons I reject the Quran.
1) As a Christian who believes both the Hebrew Scriptures or Old Testament and the New Testament, I would have to reject a book that contradicts it.
2) As a Christian I am to reject another gospel and the Quran preaches another Jesus, another God and another gospel.
3) Aside from believing God inspired the OT and NT, if we approach the text from a historical perspective I would tend to trust sources that are closer to the time of people and events that they are reporting about than must must later ones (the OT was written closer to the events about Moses by Moses, the events surrounding King David, the prophets etc and in the NT we hear from eye witnesses of those events surrounding Jesus and the Apostles while the Quran reports about the Jesus about 600 years after the fact and sources texts that are known to be false (the Gnostic literature).
4) If the Quran is the word of God then why does it teach the Torah and Gospels are from God, that God's words can't be changed and yet the Torah and Gospels that existed in Muhammed's time are the same we have today and yet Islam teaches that the Torah and the Gospels have been corrupted. So the Quran is false because it contradicts the Torah and Gospels it claims as God's Words and it is false because it declares God's Words can't change and yet Islam professes the Torah and Gospels have changed. There more that can be said but this is just something to consider.
What do you mean by Christian prefer Jesus dying on the cross? What do you mean by Christians preferring to call Jews Christ killers?
Claire Khaw
I am making the point that the Christian narrative is that Jesus died on the cross, but the Koran denies this.
I never said Christians preferred to call Jews Christ-killers. What I said was that Jews apparently prefer to be called Christ-killers because they do not ever deny this accusation by quoting from the Koran.
This was what I said:
"You would have thought that Jews and Christians would prefer [the Koran's] less harsh laws and narrative, but it seems Christians prefer Jesus to have died on the cross suffering terribly and Jews prefer to be known as Christ killers. I can only attribute this attitude to Islamophobia."
Christian
I apologize for miss quoting you, it was not intentional. Thanks for correcting me.
There are several interesting points you make.
Why do you say, "Christians prefer Jesus to have died on the cross suffering terribly?" Why would you think it seems like Jews prefer to be known as Christ killers? Is this something you believe this is the teaching of Christianity? Why do you attribute the rejection of the Quran to attitudes of Islamophobia? Do you think the Quran could be wrong about the crucifixion of Jesus?
Claire Khaw
'Why do you say, "Christians prefer Jesus to have died on the cross suffering terribly?" '
Because Christians still prefer their narrative that Jesus died on the cross to the Koranic version of Jesus did not.
Christian
Why do you think Christian's prefer the Bible version of the story over the Koranic story?
Claire Khaw
'Why would you think it seems like Jews prefer to be known as Christ killers?'
Because Jews reject the Koran which denies that Jesus died on the cross. If Jesus did not die on the cross, then it can be deduced that Jews are not Christ-killers. The Torah has 36 capital offences while the Koran only requires the death penalty if the interests of justice require this.
"Why do you attribute the rejection of the Quran to attitudes of Islamophobia?"
Jews prefer a book with much harsher laws to a more merciful holy book which lets them off the hook for being the killers of Christ. Islamophobia must be the reason.
Why else would they be making the point of rejecting the narrative and laws of the Koran other than to show hatred of Muslims and Islam which has a happier narrative and less harsh laws?
"Do you think the Quran could be wrong about the crucifixion of Jesus?"
The Koran is believed to be from God while the New Testament is by mortal and fallible men. Of course both could be wrong and there are people who believe Jesus never even existed, but people basically want to believe what they want to believe.
Christians are basically saying "We reject the happier and more authoritative divine narrative of the Koran because we prefer to think that Jesus died on the cross." It seems these Christians who claim to love Jesus actually *prefer* to think that he died horribly. This can only be explained by their hatred of Islam and Muslims.
Christians prefer the New Testament because it is Christian and reject the Koran because it is not Christian, but for no rational reason that I can tell. I suppose if they prefer the Koran, they would find themselves becoming Muslim, and to become Muslim would mean they are rejecting the religion of their ancestors. The Koran has a verse on people who follow the religion of their ancestors just because it is the religion of their ancestors. quran.com/2/170
Christian
Why do you suppose Muslim's reject the New Testament? Is it because it is not Islamic? Is it because they wish not to reject the faith of their ancestors? Is rejecting another gospel not a reason (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+1%3A6-9&version=NKJV)? Is rejecting a book that contradicts itself on the Torah and Gospels not a reason (see
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNAS0aaViM4 for a break down of this)? Is taking a rational historical approach to preferring earlier accounts of Jesus over ones 600+ years removed not a reason?
You said, "Christians are basically saying "We reject the happier and more authoritative divine narrative of the Koran because we prefer to think that Jesus died on the cross." It seems these Christians who claim to love Jesus actually prefer to think that he died horribly. This can only be explained by their hatred of Islam and Muslims." What makes you say that? Are Christians actually saying that? On Jesus and the cross, why do you think Jesus in the Gospels died on the cross?
The NT is believed to be from God (even the Quran agrees) why do you say it is man made but the Quran is not? How do you come to conclusion Christians hate Muslims? Is rejection of Christianity hatred toward Christians?
Claire Khaw
Do Christians claim that the New Testament was written by God? I was not aware that the testimony of Mark, Matthew, Luke, John, Paul etc are considered divine.
Christian
Are you aware that the Torah and Koran are believed by Jews and Muslims to actually come from God and is the Word of God?
Claire Khaw
I hope we can discuss
If I say that I would rather have a religion that is offensive to the Abrahamic God because of its idolatry and blasphemy that I claim to believe in than one that with scripture believed to have been from Him, that would be irrational wouldn't it?
An Islamophobe is someone with an IRRATIONAL hatred and fear of Muslims and Islam. It is IRRATIONAL to prefer a religion with defective scripture and displeasing to the Abrahamic God who has forbidden idolatry and blasphemy with a narrative that the prophet I claim to love died horribly while rejecting one with scripture believed to be the Word of God that says the prophet I claim to love did not die horribly.
Rejection of Christianity could be motivated by hatred of Christians, so it is important to discover the reason why Christianity is being rejected. If you reject Christianity because of its idolatry and blasphemy then it means you are mindful of God's prohibition against idolatry and blasphemy and do not wish to offend Him rather than your hatred of Christians.
Christian
I want to take some time to access and review the video you shared with me. Unfortunately the video won't load for me so I am going to work on that issue so I can view the video. I have provided some videos that address some of the misinformation out there that get's more attention than it deserves (the downside of the Internet). Many of these objections have been dealt with and refuted for quite sometime but find there way back in the lime light because knowledge of the truth is suppressed, willfully rejected or not popular. From what I have learned so far I get the sense that this film is no different than much of the conspiracy theories that are rehashed over and over again much like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, Flat Earth Theories, and other such fabrications. I respect your desire to discuss ideas and confront evil.
Claire Khaw
It is indeed a conspiracy theory, but quite plausible in that the New Testament was not a contemporaneous account of events but was written decades afterwards.
You will see that the Archbishop of Canterbury himself has been known to entertain this theory.
Jewish records do not really mention Jesus directly or clearly.
These are undisputed facts. If you want to rely on the a holy book that mentions Jesus directly, you would have to go to the Koran.
If Christians are looking for a divine reference to Jesus, the only divine source believed to be from the Abrahamic God would be the Koran, which you say you reject.
Christian theologians who believe that Muhammad was a prophet of God and that the Koran is a divine revelation mentioned at the beginning.
Christian
I don't take Professor Ward seriously nor the Archbishop of Canterbury. These statements contradict the Scriptures. As I said before, just because someone says they are Christian does not mean that they are. The New Testament and Old Testament are the standard not someone's opinion nor extra Biblical texts like The Talmud or commentaries. The Gospels warn about false teachers who teach another Gospel. We are also warned that many will fall away from the faith. The Gospels were written by those who witnessed the events described in the New Testament, I do not see a problem with them being written down after Jesus's resurrection. To answer your question earlier, it is no news, Christians accept the New Testament as Scripture inspired by God. The New Testament (which is God's revelation) mentions Jesus obviously. The Old Testament prophecies of Jesus.
Why are you so sure the Quran is God's Word? You have a problem with the New Testament being written within decades of the Gospel events but seem to be ok with the Quran which was written 600+ years after the Gospel events (blatantly misrepresents Christian doctrine and severely contradicts itself demonstrating its human origins) why is this not a problem? Are you interested in truth or just arguing? When you doubt God's existence, why argue over which text is God's Word? Isn't that irrelevant?
Claire Khaw
What is the Christian definition of idolatry?
Christian
Worship no other but God.
Claire Khaw
Where does it say Jesus is God in the New Testament?
Christian
John 1:1 is one reference
Claire Khaw
The New Testament was written by mortal and fallible men.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
How is this sentence proof Jesus became God?
The Koran is believed by Muslims to be the Word of God, which puts it above the New Testament in authority, because not even Christians are claiming that the New Testament came from Jesus, let alone God.
Christian
I told you I am having technical difficulties. Some videos play others won't. This particular video won't play on my computer. I still plan on watching it though. What do you mean by the New Testament was written by fallible men?
The word mentioned in this verse is referencing to Jesus as the context explains. Jesus never "became" God, He was God before time began as this passage and other passages claim He is eternal. All Christians I know would disagree with your statement about the New Testament not being God's Word. I realize Muslims believe the Quran is God's word but that is just what they believe.
That doesn't mean that it is.
Claire Khaw
The idolatry of Christianity explained from 59:00
You can't seem to accept that it is not obvious that Jesus is God.
Do you remember your confirmation ceremony?
Christian
What makes you say that?
Claire Khaw
You think it is OBVIOUS that Jesus is God?
Christian
Sure. I have no problem with Jesus being God. Jesus never sinned, Jesus accepted worship, Jesus claimed to be God, Jesus performed miracles, Jesus rose from the dead, Jesus' prophecies came true, Jesus was prophesied to be divine in the Old Testament, I have witnessed many lives changed through faith in Jesus, the New Testament is reliable. So yes I have no doubt Jesus is God.
How do you prove the Quran is God's word?
Claire Khaw
I can't prove it, but the Islamic narrative is that the Koran is from God, just as the narrative of Judaism is that the Torah is from God. The narrative of Christianity is that the New Testament was written by mortal and fallible men.
Christian
That is a false statement about Christianity. I am a Christian and I would know. Are you aware that Moses wrote down God's Words? Are you aware that Muhammed's disciples wrote down the Quran? Why the double standard?
Claire Khaw
What do you mean by "double standard"?
Christian
Moses a man was given the Words of the Torah from God and the prophets etc and wrote them down. Jesus's disciples wrote down the Words of the Jesus and the Words the Holy Spirit inspired them to write, yet one is God's Word and the other is written by man. The Quran was claimed to be God's Word written down by men but it can be God's word but the New Testament cannot be?
Claire Khaw
The Christian narrative does not claim Matthew, Mark etc were God, does it?
Christian
Christianity claims the New Testament is inspired by God. Here is a break down of Scriptural evidence of Jesus' divinity (https://www.gotquestions.org/is-Jesus-God.html, https://www.gotquestions.org/divinity-of-Christ.html, https://www.str.org/w/jesus-is-jehovah?p_l_back_url=%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Djesus%26category%3D35251
The central figure of Christianity is Jesus. ( I encourage you to read all of John chp 1 to get the context of John 1:1) So it is good to investigate who Jesus is (I would recommend "The Real Kosher Jesus" and "Seeking Allah Finding Jesus"). I appreciate that you are focused on this question. I believe with out a doubt that if you pursue this question to its ultimate end that you will find the claims of the New Testament creditable then you will have to make a choice on what you will do with this. Claire, I would love to continue a reasonable conversation with you (I have enjoyed our interaction) but many of the objections you raised have been answered extensively before, I have given you some reasons for my position and challenged your position on the Quran and God's existence and yet it seems this discussion is one sided, I am expected to refute all of the claims you pose and it seems you can just ignore the challenges I have made to your agnosticism asking about the existence of God and claims about the Quran. So if you are really interested in investigating these issues and finding out the truth I would suggest studying the Old Testament and New Testament (https://www.biblegateway.com), checking out the works of William Lane Craig https://www.reasonablefaith.org/, Craig Keener https://craigkeener.com, Michael L Brown http://realmessiah.com/index.php/en, Josh McDowell https://www.josh.org, RC Sproul https://www.ligonier.org, NT Wright, Darrell Bock https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/profile/darrell-bock, Ben Witherington III, http://www.benwitherington.com Greg Koukl https://www.str.org, David Wood https://www.youtube.com/c/Acts17Apologetics/featured, Nabeel Qurishi http://www.nabeelqureshi.com, James White https://www.aomin.org/aoblog/about
Dr. Brown addresses Rabbi Tovia's objections and many other Jewish objections to Jesus, David Wood and Nabeel Qureshi address Islam and the Quran, Darrell Bock, NT Wright, William Craig, Michael Brown, Nabeel, Wood, White, Ben, Keener, Greg and others deal with the historical Jesus, issues I am sure are raised by films like Caesar's Messiah raise (I ordered the book waiting on it), deal with the Trinity (RC Sproul addresses this too). This is not an exhaustive list but some resources to consider. I appreciate you sharing your resources with me, and I hope to check them out and work through the issues raised. I am not demanding you check these resources out but I wanted to at least present them to you as options. Also some interesting resources to consider: https://patternsofevidence.com (great documentaries and resources dealing with the archaeological evidence of the Exodus), https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNYHIPRt3QmzQXv1WPqyoEg
I would also encourage you to call Dr. Michael Brown's The Line of Fire show. He is always open to discuss questions with callers. http://thelineoffire.org
Nabeel Qureshi on Christianity and Islam
https://coldcasechristianity.com/
Dr. Brown refuting Rabbi Singer on Daniel 9 and Psalm 22
I appreciate your concern about idolatry and blasphemy. I agree that this is of great importance. I admire your passion and your concern about morality. I wish I could invest more time in a discussion with you on these matters but I am torn between many obligations that I feel I can't invest the time I would like to this discussion. I hope the resources I provided are helpful and I pray God makes Himself known to you and that you are receptive.
https://www.biblestudytools.com/passage/?q=deuteronomy+4:29;+proverbs+8:17;+jeremiah+29:13;+matthew+7:7;+luke+11:9;+acts+17:24-28
Claire Khaw
You must understand that Michael Brown would only have authority over Christians and your inability to deal with my points in your own words makes your arguments less convincing than they otherwise might be.
Jews would regard him as a heretic and Muslims too since Judaism and Islam are agreed with each other on idolatry. All idolatry is blasphemy and blasphemy is anything said or done that would offend God if He exists.)
Perhaps you will list for me the questions you ask me which you claim I keep ignoring, for the sake of completeness since I actually don't know what they are.
"many of the objections you raised have been answered extensively before, I have given you some reasons for my position and challenged your position on the Quran and God's existence and yet it seems this discussion is one sided, I am expected to refute all of the claims you pose and it seems you can just ignore the challenges I have made to your agnosticism asking about the existence of God and claims about the Quran."
My agnosticism is neither here nor there. I am arguing as someone who accepts the definition of idolatry in Judaism and Islam arguing with a Christian why the Christian definition of idolatry is more correct than the definition of Judaism/Islam. Your answer is a list of links.
It would appear that you are indifferent to the accusations of idolatry and blasphemy even as you know that if true, idolatry and blasphemy would endanger your chance of a desirable afterlife.
It is this intransigent attitude of Christians that makes me conclude that at heart Christians are really atheists and nihilists. It seems they are content to go their graves as Christians knowing they are considered to be idolaters and blasphemers by Jews and Muslims unable to prove to a reasonable bystander ie an agnostic that Jesus is also God. Their defence against the charge of idolatry and blasphemy would only be successful if they can prove that Jesus is God and it is clear that they cannot.
Christian
I appreciate your honesty. All I can do is provide what I can. You are welcome to check out the resources I provided (some that list out the Scriptural evidence for Jesus' divinity), but I can't force you to believe one way or another or even recognize the evidence I provided as evidence. When John chapter one clearly states that Jesus created all things meaning He is the creator and God and over and over again He makes the claim He is God and is worshipped as God and performed miracles that validated His claim through out the New Testament and was perfectly sinless (only God is good) and the Old Testament prophecies describe Him as God Isaiah 9 and describe His purpose of coming to pay the ransom for our sins Isaiah 53 for the Bible says with out the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins Hebrews 9:22 (He laid down His own life, no one took it from Him John 10:15 and 17, John 15:13). You also provided links too so we are both guilty of this. When I provide reasons, they are not good enough for you. When I ask about the authority of the Quran no argument is given except that you believe it is God's word. When I am asked about why Jesus is God and gave examples from the Old Testament that God became man and provided proof text in the New Testament and provided a link that gave a more extensive list and explanation (no sense in writing it all out if it is already written out) I am told that I did not provide proof and that because I provided links my position is compromised but you providing a link to the Quran and to Caesar's Messiah and other links is okay. When I challenged the Quran by arguing that it contradicts itself on the Torah and Gospels saying they are from God and yet the Torah and Gospels contain doctrines that contradict the Quran (some similar but others don't agree with the Quran) and that the Quran states God's word can't be changed and yet Islam teaches the Torah and Gospels have been changed (even though there is no evidence this happened) and the Quran calls the Jews and Christians to obey their scriptures but the Gospels teach another Jesus than the Quran, so Allah contradicts himself there again (because the Gospels that existed in Muhammed's day are the same ones we have today) the Quran misunderstands the Trinity suggesting it is God the Father, Mary and Jesus, this is not the Trinity doctrine so Allah is either not all knowing or a liar. People are given the choice to reject Jesus or accept Him, I understand many of the reasons Jews and Muslims and others reject Him. Those who reject Jesus are condemned (so either I am in trouble or those who reject Jesus are in trouble) John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Since the Quran rejects Jesus as God and the Son of God, or His purpose so rejecting He died and rose again (1 John 4:1-6, https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Denial-Of-Jesus-Christ) so that we who put our faith in Him shall be forgiven of sins and be raised to life everlasting. Those who reject Jesus are condemned because they refuse to believe God and accept the free gift of salvation from God. Since Jesus was perfect He could take on the sins of the world and pay the penalty for them which is death
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the [h]gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I am sorry if I failed to make clear the witness of the scriptures about Jesus. It is not up to me that you accept them but to share.
Ask yourself, what evidence would convince you? Are you biased against Christian evidence and so it has to only be from those who reject the faith? Is that being academically honest? Could that set you up to not recognize evidence when it is presented because it didn't come from the source you wanted? What about Jews who reject the Quran? What about Muslims who reject the Torah? What about Jews who appreciate aspects of the New Testament? What about Jews that accepted the claims of the New Testament? What about agnostics like Bart Ehrman who claims Jesus was historical figure? What about the mass majority of scholars who agree Jesus was a historical figure and even believe He is God? What about Rabbi Schmuley Boteach who accepts Jesus as a fellow Jew and even at times is okay with Christians believing in Him but not Jews? What about the early Jewish followers of Jesus? What about the many people delivered from drugs, anger, sexual immorality, changed in extraordinary ways through Jesus? What about the persecution of Christians in Islamic countries where there heads are being sawed off on camera for all to see and the many martyred for Christ, what would convince them of holding on to this faith till the end? What about people coming to Christ in hostile countries and families who may not even met a missionary but claim to have seen Jesus in a vision and are now risking being shunned by family, community and losing jobs and being inprisoned and tortured and killed for believing Jesus, why would they do that for a lie? Why would the disciples run in fear when Jesus was tried and sent to die but then some how become bold and give their lives for the Gospel (what would cause such a change if not the resurrection)? Why does Christianity spread under persecution? What about the reliability of the Biblical texts no other ancient literature has this much manuscript evidence to back it up? What about the confirm archaeological, and historical evidence backing up the claims of the OT and NT? If these were just made up stories they would surely get some historical and geographical and other things wrong (much like the Quran and the Book of Mormon do)? What about the scientific evidence of God's existence (fine tuning, the intelligence of DNA, life existing in the first place, objective moral values existing)? What is it about a man who wrote no book, did not travel outside of Israel, lived humbly and died on a cross that would become a house hold name to billions of people?
The links I provided are resources for you to check out on your leisure. But if you are only willing to listen to certain sources that agree with you and discount every thing Christian as false because it is Christian then you set your self up to never except evidence from Christians because your bias keeps you from considering evidence.
You question Michael Brown's authority but what about the authority of the Jewish teachers or the Muslim teachers, can they not be challenged as well? What about your rejection of God's existence, just I am endanger of judgment (according to Judaism and Islam and other faiths) who and everyone of them are endanger of judgement according to the OT and NT.
Wouldn't it be fair to say that you are indifferent as well? When I challenge the authority of the Quran you don't back it up nor do you realize that the Old Testament does not agree with Islam. The Bible and the Quran (though they have similarities) teach two different Gods. If Jesus is God, then worship of Him does not violate the Ten Commandments, since we have evidence from the Old Testament that God appeared before men and we have Messianic prophecies that confirm the testimony of the New Testament and we have New Testament reasons to believe Jesus is who He says He is and testimony of people who have been impacted by Jesus even to this day and ancient sources outside the Bible including non-Christian sources like Josephus, Tacitus, Jewish literature, literature of other faiths etc confirming various facts that Jesus was, did miracles, and died and we have eye witness testimony in the Gospels, we can be sure of the New Testament as revelation from God. I love Muslims, atheists, Jews, agnostics and others and mean no disrespect toward them and their beliefs. I also identify where we share common ground on matters and I don't want to dismiss that either.
Claire Khaw
"When John chapter one clearly states that Jesus created all things meaning He is the creator and God and over and over again He makes the claim He is God and is worshipped as God and performed miracles that validated His claim through out the New Testament and was perfectly sinless (only God is good) and the Old Testament prophecies describe Him as God Isaiah 9 and describe His purpose of coming to pay the ransom for our sins Isaiah 53 for the Bible says with out the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins Hebrews 9:22 (He laid down His own life, no one took it from Him John 10:15 and 17, John 15:13)."
The Book of John is not claimed by Christians to come from God, is it? While we know Christians claim Jesus is God, they do not claim that John is God, do they?
"When I provide reasons, they are not good enough for you. When I ask about the authority of the Quran no argument is given except that you believe it is God's word."
I do not claim that the Koran is God's Word, merely that Muslims believe the Koran to be God's Word. Christians do not claim that the New Testament was written by Jesus, let alone God, do they?
"When I am asked about why Jesus is God and gave examples from the Old Testament that God became man and provided proof text in the New Testament and provided a link that gave a more extensive list and explanation (no sense in writing it all out if it is already written out) I am told that I did not provide proof and that because I provided links my position is compromised but you providing a link to the Quran and to Caesar's Messiah and other links is okay."
Yes, you do need to cut and paste it to make me read it, but I have already pointed out that scripture believed to be from God trumps the words of mortal and fallible men in the Tanakh and the New Testament.
"When I challenged the Quran by arguing that it contradicts itself on the Torah and Gospels saying they are from God and yet the Torah and Gospels contain doctrines that contradict the Quran (some similar but others don't agree with the Quran) and that the Quran states God's word can't be changed and yet Islam teaches the Torah and Gospels have been changed (even though there is no evidence this happened) and the Quran calls the Jews and Christians to obey their scriptures but the Gospels teach another Jesus than the Quran, so Allah contradicts himself there again (because the Gospels that existed in Muhammed's day are the same ones we have today) the Quran misunderstands the Trinity suggesting it is God the Father, Mary and Jesus, this is not the Trinity doctrine so Allah is either not all knowing or a liar."
This is a very long sentence!
How does the Koran contradict itself?
How does the Koran contradict the Torah?
The New Testament is lower in status than the Koran because even Christians do not claim that the New Testament was written by Jesus, let alone God, but the Koran is believed by Muslims to God's Word.
You don't seem to accept that Jews and Muslims worship the same Abrahamic God. Are you aware that the Abrahamic faiths include Judaism, Christianity and Islam? If you call Allah a liar, you are calling the Abrahamic God a liar.
Obviously, the Koran is God's laws for gentiles and the Torah is God's laws for Jews. The Torah had to precede the Koran in order for the Koran to be the last revelation to mankind.
Which verse in the Koran even refers to the Trinity?
"Ask yourself, what evidence would convince you?"
As an agnostic, I am not so much interested in the narratives as the rules. The Noahide laws are a minimum universal moral standard and Christianity offends against its prohibitions against idolatry and blasphemy.
"Are you biased against Christian evidence and so it has to only be from those who reject the faith?"
I am mindful of the following:
1) The Noahide prohibition against idolatry and blasphemy
2) The Christian narrative that Jesus was convicted of blasphemy
3) The Christian practice of worshiping Jesus as the co-equal of the supreme and eternal Abrahamic God who created the Universe
4) That the Doctrine of the Trinity is in fact idolatry and blasphemy
5) That all the verses you quote that you claim is evidence of the co-equal status of Jesus with God were written by mortal and fallible men
"Is that being academically honest?"
Are you accusing me of being dishonest because I use the Noahide laws to measure the morality of a religion?
Do you accept the Noahide laws?
"Could that set you up to not recognize evidence when it is presented because it didn't come from the source you wanted?"
My baseline is the Noahide laws. It would be rational and moral as gentiles to choose the most Noahide of gentile religions if we accept the narrative of the Abrahamic God and it would appear that Islam is the most Noahide but Christianity the least because of the Doctrine of the Trinity because it requires Christians to worship a man non-Christians would consider to be deceased as the co-equal of the supreme and eternal Abrahamic God who created the Universe.
"What about Jews who reject the Quran?"
What about them?
"What about Muslims who reject the Torah?"
What about them?
"What about Jews who appreciate aspects of the New Testament?"
What about them?
"What about Jews that accepted the claims of the New Testament?"
What about them?
"What about agnostics like Bart Ehrman who claims Jesus was historical figure?"
What about them?
"What about the mass majority of scholars who agree Jesus was a historical figure and even believe He is God?"
They would be Christians, and Christians are idolaters because they worship a man. Jesus was a man and Man is a creation of God according to the narrative of the Abrahamic God.
"What about Rabbi Schmuley Boteach who accepts Jesus as a fellow Jew and even at times is okay with Christians believing in Him but not Jews?"
What about him?
"What about the early Jewish followers of Jesus?"
What about them?
"What about the many people delivered from drugs, anger, sexual immorality, changed in extraordinary ways through Jesus?"
There are plenty of people who corrected themselves without believing that Jesus is also God. I would be interested to know if any of these people attributed their recovery from addiction and sin through believing Jesus is God.
"What about the persecution of Christians in Islamic countries where there heads are being sawed off on camera for all to see and the many martyred for Christ, what would convince them of holding on to this faith till the end?"
I am not aware of this.
"What about people coming to Christ in hostile countries and families who may not even met a missionary but claim to have seen Jesus in a vision and are now risking being shunned by family, community and losing jobs and being imprisoned and tortured and killed for believing Jesus, why would they do that for a lie?"
Are these people refugees seeking asylum in Western nations?
"Why would the disciples run in fear when Jesus was tried and sent to die but then some how become bold and give their lives for the Gospel (what would cause such a change if not the resurrection)?"
You assume the truth of these narratives while I am more concerned about whether the moral system you propose conforms to the Noahide laws. We already know that Christianity has failed in the West because so many Western nations assume idolatry, blasphemy and sexual immorality to be so much part of the culture that it is Western nations who are exporting the "values" of Sodom and Gomorrah globally.
"Why does Christianity spread under persecution?"
Are you claiming that the number of Christians is now rising?
"What about the reliability of the Biblical texts no other ancient literature has this much manuscript evidence to back it up?"
To back what up?
"What about the confirm archaeological, and historical evidence backing up the claims of the OT and NT?"
What archaeological and historical evidence backs up the Trinity?
"If these were just made up stories they would surely get some historical and geographical and other things wrong (much like the Quran and the Book of Mormon do)?"
As agnostic, I do not care about the narrative but whether Christianity conforms to the Noahide laws which forbid idolatry and blasphemy.
"What about the scientific evidence of God's existence (fine tuning, the intelligence of DNA, life existing in the first place, objective moral values existing)?"
I am not aware of any scientist claiming God's existence can be proven using science. All societies require a set of beliefs and shared values to keep the group in existence and apart from others.
"What is it about a man who wrote no book, did not travel outside of Israel, lived humbly and died on a cross that would become a house hold name to billions of people?"
Christianity was spread by the Spanish, British and American empires.
"You question Michael Brown's authority but what about the authority of the Jewish teachers or the Muslim teachers, can they not be challenged as well?"
Christianity is the odd one out, since Judaism and Islam are agreed on the oneness of God and reject the Trinity.
"What about your rejection of God's existence, just I am endanger of judgment (according to Judaism and Islam and other faiths) who and everyone of them are endanger of judgement according to the OT and NT."
As an agnostic, I am obliged to consider the possibility of God's existence which I do. If the Abrahamic God who explicitly and specifically forbade idolatry does indeed exist, shouldn't Christians expect punishment from Him after 2000 years of idolatry and blasphemy?
"Wouldn't it be fair to say that you are indifferent as well?"
I do not think I exhibit indifference by continuing to engage with you on the subject.
"When I challenge the authority of the Quran you don't back it up nor do you realize that the Old Testament does not agree with Islam."
Christians already have an inferior scripture written by mortal and fallible men. Christians themselves do not claim that the New Testament was written by Jesus, let alone God. The Torah and Koran are always to be preferred if the New Testament is in conflict with either of their accounts.
"The Bible and the Quran (though they have similarities) teach two different Gods."
There is only one Abrahamic God. It is to be expected that the different branches of the Abrahamic faiths would claim that their way to God is best of all.
"If Jesus is God, then worship of Him does not violate the Ten Commandments, since we have evidence from the Old Testament that God appeared before men and we have Messianic prophecies that confirm the testimony of the New Testament and we have New Testament reasons to believe Jesus is who He says He is and testimony of people who have been impacted by Jesus even to this day and ancient sources outside the Bible including non-Christian sources like Josephus, Tacitus, Jewish literature, literature of other faiths etc confirming various facts that Jesus was, did miracles, and died and we have eye witness testimony in the Gospels, we can be sure of the New Testament as revelation from God."
The Word of God in the Torah and Koran should always trump the word of mortal and fallible men in the New Testament, shouldn't it?
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