Rebecca Abrahamson is with יעקב נגן.
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Rebecca Abrahamson is with יעקב נגן.
1 h ·
Qur'an 9:30 - "The Jews say, “Ezra is the son of Allah,” while the Christians say, “The Messiah is the son of Allah.” Such are their baseless assertions, only parroting the words of earlier disbelievers. May Allah condemn them! How can they be deluded ˹from the truth˺?"
This ayah is often used to discredit Islam, we all know that Jews do not worship a man! But wait - this passage should actually hint at a greater complexity at work here.
Most Jews today are descended from Rabbinic Jews - those who believe that the oral tradition, codified in the Talmud, interprets the written Torah. But the Karaite community, which does not hold by the oral law, used to outnumber the Rabbinites, though their numbers have dwindled.
The Sadducees also did not hold by the oral tradition. They were Hellenized, ruled the Second Temple, imposed forced conversion upon the local non-Jewish population to a form of Judaism in which fewer commandments are required. (This was done without the population's knowledge, it was merely imposed, think of it as imposed citizenship, there was nothing warlike about this process.) Jews today will say - "forced conversions are an anathema to us!" Forced conversions are indeed an anathema to Rabbinic Jews, but they were not an anathema to the expansionist Sadduceans.
When the Temple fell, the Sadducees did not just disappear. They built a Temple at Heliopolis and made sacrifices there (sacrifice outside the Temple is another anathema to Rabbinic Jews).
Scholars Ibn Hazm and Al Jahiz said that the Jews who worshiped Ezra were "Sadukaya" - Sadducees
So do not be too quick to dismiss passages in the Qur'an which actually may be pointing to historical facts that we have forgotten.
There were groups of Jews who no longer exist.
Some also wonder - why is the language of the Qur'an at times harsh to Jews and at times accepting? This may be because Muhammad(pbuh) was speaking to two different groups - the Sadukaya, who were expansionist and cynically imposing religion on others, and the Rabbinites, who were cleaving to their revelation as handed down from their forebears without ulterior motive.
Think of the Cathar Christian community, which ceased to exist in the 14th century. Just like other communities have faded from the scene, the Sadducees faded, assimilating into the new host cultures.
Islam has no problem with this or that practice of a monotheist sect. Muhammad(pbuh) was not criticizing the Sadducean Jews for, say, their Sabbath observance differing from the Rabbinic Sabbath, he in fact embraced all monotheists with this proviso:
"Indeed, the believers, Jews, Sabians and Christians—whoever ˹truly˺ believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good, there will be no fear for them, nor will they grieve." 2:62
See also:
"To each among you have we prescribed a Shariah (law) and Minhaj (custom). If Allah had so willed, He could have made you a single Ummah (people), but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth about the matters in which ye differ;" (Surat Al Maeda 5,48)
"To each is a direction of prayer to which Allah turns him; then strive together (as in a race) Towards all that is good. Wheresoever ye are, Allah will bring you Together. For Allah Hath power over all things." (Surat Al Baqara 2.148)
The problem was using religion as a form of militant expansionism. That is what Muhammad(pbuh) bravely called out, one of many courageous declarations he made.
So embrace contradiction, it may not be contradiction after all.
Claire Khaw
What do Muslims feel about those who claim that God has begotten a son? quran.com/18/4
Claire Khaw
What do Jews feel about Christians worshipping a man convicted and executed for blasphemy as the co-equal of Hashem for 2000 years? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanhedrin_trial_of_Jesus
Rebecca Abrahamson
"Ma'asey avoteihem b'yadeihem" - the deeds of their fathers are in their hands, meaning, if someone grows up with mistaken theology, but still does good deeds, that mistaken theology is no big deal. (Who says anyone was convicted fairly under tyrannical Rome?)
Claire Khaw
Rebecca Abrahamson So Jews have no duty to discuss the Noahide laws with gentiles, not even when they can see that the religion of the empire gives them protection is obviously failing?
Claire Khaw
Rebecca Abrahamson So you are saying Jews have ABSOLUTELY NO DUTY WHATSEOVER to warn gentiles about their failed idolatrous and blasphemous religion?
James David Audlin
I say the following in the GOJ -- "... there is no law in the Torah forbidding Jews from claiming to be children of God. Scholars point to Leviticus 24:16, which forbids blasphemy. But, as noted in the commentary to John 10:33, the accusation of blasphemy against Jesus and the demand that he be executed for it is a canard. The Talmud clearly declares that: “If a man says to you, ‘I am God,’ he is [merely] a liar; if [he says ‘I am] the son of man,’ people will ultimately [just] laugh at him.” (Tr. Yer. Taan. 65b). And Jesus himself has cited Psalm 82:6 at John 10:34, a verse that speaks of the Jewish people as the children of God. (Another of several is found at Psalm 2:6-7.) ...
"This statement of the priests may, however, be more than a mere canard. These chief priests know the Torah and would be unlikely to cite it incorrectly. However, several times in this episode [i.e., the trial of Jesus in the Gospel of John] they are clearly using psychological ploys to goad or entrap Pilate such that he has no choice but to execute Jesus, and this appears to be another example. Though it may not be against the Torah to call oneself a son of God, they are likely to know that this is from a Roman perspective a treasonous and heretical statement to make: only the emperor had the right to call himself Divi Filius (“Son of God”). These high priests are familiar with Roman law, as they must be, being subjects of Rome. But it would not be appropriate for them to inform the Roman ruler on the subject, and so they may be bringing up the subject of Divi Filius, lèse majesté, in a delicate manner, pretending to be citing such law from their own expertise, the Torah. If this is their intent, then when they say “we have a law” they are identifying themselves (“we”) as good subjects of Rome (19:15c), and so implicatively they are saying that Rome has a law to this effect. In verse 11 these Herodian priests, wannabe Romans, say they are loyal to the emperor and in verse 15 they say “We have no king if not Cæsar!” Thus, if here they are really referring to Roman law, not Jewish, then all three of their statements to Pilate are to insinuate that he would be wise not to appear less Roman than they."
In the 10:33 commentary I add -- "And indeed kings and high priests were often referred to in Jewish tradition as sons of God. Before them, Abraham was called God’s friend (II Chronicles 20:7) and Moses spoke with him face-to-face (Exodus 33:11), as do friends. Such a claim would have been high blasphemy not to Jews but to Romans; while it was customary to believe an emperor became a god only post-mortem. That this is at root a Roman issue points to the Pauline-Roman nature of orthodox Christianity."
Claire Khaw
James David Audlin The fact remains that Jesus was convicted and executed of blasphemy, was he not?
Claire Khaw
I suppose it is only to be expected that if you don't want to do something, you will say it doesn't need to be done or has already been done, or, as it seems to be the case, that no one can make you do this thing that you don't want to do anyway. If idolaters and blasphemers want to stew in their own idolatrous and blasphemous juices, that is not your problem and you don't care. Is that about right?
Claire Khaw
Is there a suggestion that you would like to see these idolaters and blasphemers get their comeuppance after 2000 years of idolatry and blasphemy?
Claire Khaw
Assuming that this is the plan: that you would like to sit back and watch these blasphemers and idolaters stew in their own idolatrous and blasphemous juices and get their comeuppance, don't you think Jews would be affected? They always get the blame for everything, don't they?
Rebecca Abrahamson
Claire, Christianity did not fail.
Claire Khaw
Rebecca Abrahamson How is Christianity not kaput?
Claire Khaw
Rebecca Abrahamson Why are you talking to Muslims if Christianity is not already kaput? You already know that Christians won't care about their idolatry and blasphemy because they are really atheists anyway, don't you?
Rebecca Abrahamson
Claire Khaw I never heard of Jesus from my own religion. I did hear that Romans were terrible and made Jews suffer, but that ultimately our internal strife, among Jewish people, is what really caused the Temple to fall.
Claire Khaw
Rebecca Abrahamson I am aware of the Disputation of Paris, when a rabbi pointed out that a particularly unflattering description of Jesus in the Talmud was that not every Jesus is the Jesus that Christians worship in the same way that not every Louis in France is the King of France.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputation_of_Paris
Claire Khaw
Do Jews have a duty to remind gentiles of the Noahide laws?
Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, the last leader of Chabad-Lubavitch Hasidism wrote:
We must do everything possible to ensure that the seven Noahide laws are observed. If this can be accomplished through force or through other kinder and more peaceful means through explaining to non-Jews that they should accept God’s wishes [we should do so]…Anyone who is able to influence a non-Jew in any way to keep the seven commandments is obligated to do so, since that is what God commanded Moses our teacher (“Sheva Mitzvot Shel Benai Noach,” Hapardes 59:9 7-11, 5745)
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-noahide-laws/
Kevin Villoth
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Rebecca Abrahamson
Claire, your comments have nothing to do with my thread.
Rebecca Abrahamson Qur'an 9:30 - "The Jews say, “Ezra is the son of Allah,” while the Christians say, “The Messiah is the son of Allah.”
This was what my comments related to.
Rebecca Abrahamson
I believe in working with all monotheists, and Christianity is accepted by traditional Rabbinic Judaism as monotheistic, with ideas about the trinity and such merely traditions that they received which they can not be held accountable for. I of course do share the 7 laws of Noah all the time.
Claire Khaw
Rebecca Abrahamson Have you considered that traditional rabbinic Judaism declaring Christians to be Noahide was more to do with expediency than truth? Jews simply didn't want to be moved on again or get into trouble with the blasphemy laws of the Christian countries they were residing in as a minority.
Claire Khaw
Rebecca Abrahamson I don't know if you can see my private messages to you.
Claire Khaw
"In view of the strict monotheism of Islam, Muslims were considered as Noachides whereas the status of Christians was a matter of debate."
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-seven-noachide-laws
Rebecca Abrahamson
CLAIRE, I will give you ten minutes to copy all the above. Then I will erase it as it does not relate to my thread at all. No I cannot see your private messages now. Please erase them as I intend to delete them. Fair warning, thank you for understanding.
Rebecca Abrahamson
Start erasing and copying to your own devices, you have nine more minutes.
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